[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Big Ewis]

In truth South Africa scare me more than NZ right now. To any Kiwis reading this that's not because I think you've got some mystical, all powering giving aura that is slowly sapping away or anything, or that I think we're actually a better team than the All Blacks.

However South Africa have SO much power that the only way to beat them is to put your all into achieving parity up from and then be better out wide. NZ have show that for the last two seasons. That is something I don't think we can do.

that's exactly right. That's exactly what NZ did to them, although for that particular match in Joburg NZ really let their attacking class show more than anything and were subjected to the Saffa power a whole lot.
Another somewhat recent case is when we beat them in 2009: crazy intensity in the scrum, lineouts, in the rucks, a game that went non-stop for 80min where both teams managed just 1 try each. And they were beating EVERYBODY that year, so you never know if you get the at home you can play that really good match...

So it's simple, you either have to beat them up, a taste of their own medicine. But it doesn't seem like teams can do that right now. For France's case, put aside we're coachless/directionless, we just don't have nearly the grunt we had back then. That 2009 game we had the Servat, Barcella, Nallet, Harinordoquy, Marconnet, Chabal...even in the backs, guys like Yann David, Cédric Heymans, Damien Traille...that's exactly what we lacked last November against the Boks: BALLS, old school Rugby guys.
England are still fairly young in the pack, but they're at least really big. Robshaw, Wood, Ben Morgan, Vunipola, Marler, Hartley, Dan Cole or David Wilson, Launchbury...those are all really big guys, thick, strong guys. And I think they have the mental strength.

As I was saying, either meet them up front and beat them up, bully them...OR resist in the trenches with your pack, but deliver the K.O. punch from a beautifully mounted try or two.
I think England could beat the Boks at home, but really I believe they might be just a tad young still for that. It's possible, but maybe if they had just a little more time.

 

[austingtir]

South Africa is without a doubt to me the biggest WC threat for next year. Its looking like they may have found a fullback so the backline may actually function half decent... with Bakies and Victor back that is one hell of a forward pack (With depth) they got there. NZ is very very lucky to have Kaino back otherwise id give us about 0 chance of beating them this year especially so with Hansen not dropping guys that arent performing.

Sorry to our English friends but if you meet this SA side on song imo they are going to blow you guys off the park!

 

[Maverick1987]

South Africa is without a doubt to me the biggest WC threat for next year. Its looking like they may have found a fullback so the backline may actually function half decent... with Bakies and Victor back that is one hell of a forward pack (With depth) they got there. NZ is very very lucky to have Kaino back otherwise id give us about 0 chance of beating them this year especially so with Hansen not dropping guys that arent performing.

Sorry to our English friends but if you meet this SA side on song imo they are going to blow you guys off the park!

It's you that's got to play them in the RC next and if you meet this SA side on song imo they are going to blow you guys off the park too lol

 

[Darwin]

It's you that's got to play them in the RC next and if you meet this SA side on song imo they are going to blow you guys off the park too lol

You mean the South African side that hasn't got within 10 points of us since the last RWC?

South Africa may well beat us this year, but even if they are on-song they are very unlikely to blow us off the park, especially as we seem to save our best rugby for them. As it happens I don't think South Africa would blow this English side off the park either. This English side look to have a very good forward pack (and will only be better when the likes of Corbisiero and Cole return), have an abundance of talented backs (getting the right combination may be the key), seem very well coached, and (vitally) never give up. This 'never say die' attitude is what sets this English side apart in my opinion. In last years ABs vs England test the AB's where on fire at the start (17-3 at one stage), but England fought back to lead 22-20 with about 20 mins left. Quite frankly AB's supporter are not used to teams fighting back against us. It is highly unusual. Normally if we get a 10 point lead we just cruise through and win the game comfortably (as arrogant as that sounds!). Likewise it was England finishing stronger in the last 10 minutes of the last test. This is probably slightly disrespectful to past English sides, but I do believe some of the English teams of the past would have just laid down an died after the AB's onslaught and it would have been a 30 point All Blacks win rather than a 1 point win.....

 

[goodNumber10]

England line up for 'saders:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/june/news-articles/160614_eng_team_crusaders

15 Alex Goode (Saracens)
14 Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
13 Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
12 Brad Barritt (Saracens)
11 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
10 Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
9 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
1 Alex Waller (Northampton Saints)
2 Joe Gray (Harlequins)
3 Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
4 Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers, capt)
5 Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
6 James Haskell (London Wasps)
7 Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
8 Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)

Replacements
16 David Ward (Harlequins)
17 Nathan Catt (Bath Rugby)
18 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
19 Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks)
20 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
21 Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
22 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
23 Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

 

[Patchey]

Oh for gods sake...

It's too early and I've had too little sleep so I'm not going to rant about how odd and wrong that team is. I guess Pennell, Ward, LCD and others have just had a glorified holiday then?

What it does suggest though is that Ben Youngsia somehow our second choice nine again, Ashton will start next weekend and that If Farrell does turn out to be crocked then we'll either have 36 or a fatigued Myler as cover.

 

[goodNumber10]

agreed, in that there are a few players i'm dissapointed to see take the field: foden, haskell, attwood, cipriani.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cowan-Dickie got sent home with a knee injury, but I agree on the others - all should definitely be starting.

 

[Maverick1987]

You mean the South African side that hasn't got within 10 points of us since the last RWC?

South Africa may well beat us this year, but even if they are on-song they are very unlikely to blow us off the park, especially as we seem to save our best rugby for them. As it happens I don't think South Africa would blow this English side off the park either. This English side look to have a very good forward pack (and will only be better when the likes of Corbisiero and Cole return), have an abundance of talented backs (getting the right combination may be the key), seem very well coached, and (vitally) never give up. This 'never say die' attitude is what sets this English side apart in my opinion. In last years ABs vs England test the AB's where on fire at the start (17-3 at one stage), but England fought back to lead 22-20 with about 20 mins left. Quite frankly AB's supporter are not used to teams fighting back against us. It is highly unusual. Normally if we get a 10 point lead we just cruise through and win the game comfortably (as arrogant as that sounds!). Likewise it was England finishing stronger in the last 10 minutes of the last test. This is probably slightly disrespectful to past English sides, but I do believe some of the English teams of the past would have just laid down an died after the AB's onslaught and it would have been a 30 point All Blacks win rather than a 1 point win.....

Sorry I think you misunderstand . I agree 100% with everything you say here I was just talking the Michael out of Austingir that's all lol

 

[Darwin]

Sorry I think you misunderstand . I agree 100% with everything you say here I was just talking the Michael out of Austingir that's all lol

Yeah I know you were just addressing Austingr's comments. I've just been quietly impressed with this English side over the last few years (so thought I should finally admit it ), and feel some people are over-rating South Africa, and under-rating NZ and England....

 

[ratsapprentice]

SA are very hard to gauge at the moment.

They could absolutely dominate the tournament like they did in 2007 or they could peter out and just be strong.

 

[Darwin]

SA are very hard to gauge at the moment.

They could absolutely dominate the tournament like they did in 2007 or they could peter out and just be strong.

By the looks of it they will have almost the same side at the next RWC as they did in 2007

 

[Big Ewis]

that's right, Winner (Pool) B vs Winner C in the semis, that's SA vs NZ.
But if Australia ends up first in Pool A, and England second, then England does have to play the Springboks as early as the 1/4F. In which case I'd have to give it to the Boks. And btw, the Boks will have an absolute walk in the park in their Pool. They'll beat the CRAP out of everyone there, no contest. Their tournament starts in the 1/4F. England can't say so much.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

While I like reading SA being talked up here, I have to agree that anyone speaking about SA at the moment has to put asterisks after any statement for the following reasons;

- there are a few question marks about the personel going forwards still; at least more than for Eng and NZ
- in the last two years the games we've played aren't exactly anything to go by; we havn't played Eng at all, the two matches against NZ were.. strange; you have Bismarck red carded unduly in the first while he was having a storming game and we were really in that match IMO. And then in Jo'Burg the Bokke had to play NZ rugby against NZ because of the tournament setup and not getting a BP in the first match-up so I don't know if I want to take that match as a gauge either..

That said a lot is going right for SA heading into the RWC 2015 though the RC this year we will have to lay down a marker against NZ IMO; one we were close(ish) to doing last year despite what the points read for a relatively new team under a new coach;

- HM's game fits our strengths and more importantly the guys seem to buy into it and really know what their roles are
- we have fantastic depth in most positions
- HM seems to have a knack for getting good performances out of the 2007 troupe functioning as a core
- while bringing in exciting, good new players and getting the best out of them as well; IE le Roux in defense for SA can't be comprared to Le Roux for the Cheetahs

 

[Big Ewis]

And then in Jo'Burg the Bokke had to play NZ rugby against NZ because of the tournament setup and not getting a BP in the first match-up so I don't know if I want to take that match as a gauge either..

they still conceded 5 tries and 40 points at home, including an easy Kieran Read try with the Blacks down to 14 men, and that was an answer in itself as to just how good the AB were at the time, compared to anyone. No question there.
In stead of focusing on that, let's see what the Boks can manage this year in TRC in both games against the Blacks. It's more current and way more telling for the next RWC.
I think the Boks' games in Ireland and England will both give the world a few answers about where the former stand in the November tests as Scotland and Wales were absolutely no match last November, and France could only do so much playing one-on-one ball for 80min with absolutely zero team identity.
Curious to see what the Wallabies can manage in the next TRC too, surely much better than in the last edition. Their early-2013 form drought was short-lived.

If I were to give the top teams a ranking, I'd have a hard time with third, Australia or England ? I think I'd go:
NZ
SA
AUS
ENG
IRE
just like the actual IRB ranking. The questions for me are whether Ireland can sustain their 6N form, can the Boks beat the AB, can the Wallabies beat NZ or SA next August, and will England show flaws that haven't surfaced yet and are they as consistent as we think ?

 

[goodNumber10]

the thing with Ireland - and i mean this with the utmost respect, but i couldn't help but feel that this 6 Nations was an end of an era performance rather than the dawning of a new age.

I'm hoping i'm wrong as the world game needs at least two powerful NH teams - France and Wales have too many issues to be consistent at the moment.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

they still conceded 5 tries and 40 points at home, including an easy Kieran Read try with the Blacks down to 14 men, and that was an answer in itself as to just how good the AB were at the time, compared to anyone. No question there.
In stead of focusing on that, let's see what the Boks can manage this year in TRC in both games against the Blacks. It's more current and way more telling for the next RWC.
I think the Boks' games in Ireland and England will both give the world a few answers about where the former stand in the November tests as Scotland and Wales were absolutely no match last November, and France could only do so much playing one-on-one ball for 80min with absolutely zero team identity.
Curious to see what the Wallabies can manage in the next TRC too, surely much better than in the last edition. Their early-2013 form drought was short-lived.

If I were to give the top teams a ranking, I'd have a hard time with third, Australia or England ? I think I'd go:
NZ
SA
AUS
ENG
IRE
just like the actual IRB ranking. The questions for me are whether Ireland can sustain their 6N form, can the Boks beat the AB, can the Wallabies beat NZ or SA next August, and will England show flaws that haven't surfaced yet and are they as consistent as we think ?

I think we'll have to disagree on NZ vs SA last year. Yes, they were peaking and we were probably a year away as a team from really pushing BUT don't read too much into those scorelines is all I'm saying. Other than that I agree we havn't been up against it ITO tests. No disrespect intended.

Apart from us I agree Aus are another difficult one to pin down but I do think they are behind England if only because England is more consistent and has better depth but that said I know I tend to put down the Aussies unfairly at tim,es.

 

[Big Ewis]

the thing with Ireland - and i mean this with the utmost respect, but i couldn't help but feel that this 6 Nations was an end of an era performance rather than the dawning of a new age.

I'm hoping i'm wrong as the world game needs at least two powerful NH teams - France and Wales have too many issues to be consistent at the moment.

what ? that's absurd...

EDIT: also, I agree with you about Ireland. I think they'll always be a good team, or at least have always been solid the past, like, decade. But I thought they were the new shhit now because they got this new coach who taught them how to play really clean and disciplined and tactically and all...but maybe that'll be short-lived. How many times have we seen, in this said past decade's era, a fantastic Irish team that often came close in the 6N, had excellent yearly tours, and then couldn't nearly sustain that quality for more than a handful of months ?
Of course, the good news for Ireland right now is that they've yet to show a drop in form (although they were indeed poor in Argentina, yes, even in the context) and the head of their pool in the next RWC, France, are more of a basketball team than a Rugby team atm (which isn't all that bad I suppose...) and aren't going to improve considerably by then; while their "challenger" is fkng Italy, which has officially, yes officially, dropped right into the middle of Tier 2 territory.

 

[Peat]

Don't buy into the hype about BOD's last huzzah. Every other member of that team will be back next year with the exception of John Plumtree as forwards coach, and that imo is far more likely to ruin their efforts going forwards.

In general, Ireland have a vastly improved and improving academy system, the best focus on the international game in the NH and the best international head coach. I'd view it as a surprise if they're not up there next 6N and in general for a bit to come.

 

[goodNumber10]

Peat, i agree with all of that, yet i just have a feeling that it was looking like time to rebuild. So much revolved around Darcy and BOD, and well.... you get where i'm going. It's just a a gut feeling, like i say i hope i'm wrong.