[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[psychic duck]

Don't buy into the hype about BOD's last huzzah. Every other member of that team will be back next year with the exception of John Plumtree as forwards coach, and that imo is far more likely to ruin their efforts going forwards.

In general, Ireland have a vastly improved and improving academy system, the best focus on the international game in the NH and the best international head coach. I'd view it as a surprise if they're not up there next 6N and in general for a bit to come.

A lot will depend on whether Martin Moore can takeover successfully from Mike Ross when the time comes. Ross has been excellent in international rugby this year. Still shocking that Tony Buckley was seen as the better option by the previous Irish management for so long, whilst also continually persisting with John Hayes. Ross in my opinion has surpassed Hayes in terms of achievement and performances at international level as Ireland's best tighthead of the professional era, not his fault his cap tally doesn't reflect that.

 

[Groundhog]

Don't buy into the hype about BOD's last huzzah. Every other member of that team will be back next year with the exception of John Plumtree as forwards coach, and that imo is far more likely to ruin their efforts going forwards.

In general, Ireland have a vastly improved and improving academy system, the best focus on the international game in the NH and the best international head coach. I'd view it as a surprise if they're not up there next 6N and in general for a bit to come.

This.
Where has this stuff about the end of an era come from? We were **** last year under Kidney, hardly a golden age. Our pack will remain largely unchanged, and yes we will lose BO'D in the backs but honestly he wasn't exceptional in a few matches this year. Meanwhile we were left with a really unlikely wing pairing due to injury, which actually turned out very well, but we should have so much more depth there come World Cup with some wiggle room to move guys like Earls or Fitz to 13 if needs be.
I'll agree with Psychic Duck regards Ross. He's been exceptional and despite the hype that comes from being a promising prop, Moore hasn't shown he can fill that role yet imo. While I personally wouldn't rank him ahead of the Bull in my bias he has been ridiculously depended upon by this team, and without a decent tighthead we could be in trouble. Same goes for outside centre, but again there are options, although none tried, again through injury.

 

[munstermuffin]

A lot will depend on whether Martin Moore can takeover successfully from Mike Ross when the time comes. Ross has been excellent in international rugby this year. Still shocking that Tony Buckley was seen as the better option by the previous Irish management for so long, whilst also continually persisting with John Hayes. Ross in my opinion has surpassed Hayes in terms of achievement and performances at international level as Ireland's best tighthead of the professional era, not his fault his cap tally doesn't reflect that.

Agree with all this. Down to Buckley area. Firstly Buckley was only ahead as he was (I put this loosely) able to play both sides of scrum and that's how he was rated as remember Buckley was in 22man squads not 23.
Regards John Hayes I think your seriously underestimating him and his input in to Irish rugby. He was excellent in early to mid 00's and could hold his own in scrum as well as his line out work of lifting on his own. He wanted to retire 2-3 years before he did but was convinced to stay on.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Anyone else think we may see Nathan Earle play a bit of sevens?
Maybe in the commonwealths (at a push) or in Rio?

He is really, really quick and the England team isn't really going to be bringing in any new wingers anytime soon.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/27914844

Thank God. Never to play in an England Union shirt again.

GN10 - all those videos on Tomkins showing he wasn't all that bad went to waste.

 

[welshglory]

Anyone else think we may see Nathan Earle play a bit of sevens?
Maybe in the commonwealths (at a push) or in Rio?

He is really, really quick and the England team isn't really going to be bringing in any new wingers anytime soon.

To be fair your current options haven't really set the world alight. You've got a few guys with potential but there is still an opportunity for someone to stake a claim.

Future options?
Nowell
Earle
Wade
Yarde
And Watson as wing/fullback

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone else think we may see Nathan Earle play a bit of sevens?
Maybe in the commonwealths (at a push) or in Rio?

He is really, really quick and the England team isn't really going to be bringing in any new wingers anytime soon.

It wouldn't surprise me - there's been a few players, recently, that have shone at u20 level but haven't been able to break into their club's senior side, that have gone on to play a role in the 7s set up.

 

[ratsapprentice]

To be fair your current options haven't really set the world alight. You've got a few guys with potential but there is still an opportunity for someone to stake a claim.

Yeah, but we're a year out from the RWC and there are several guys who would clearly be ahead of him who haven't had a chance yet.

Olyy: But the IRB are actively encouraging Unions to select their "star" XV's players for the sevens - I wouldn't be surprised to see a few players join the sevens side for the Olympics.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I would.
England 7s players are centrally contracted now, it's pretty much it's own entity, separate from the XVs game.
We've tried bringing 'names' in in the past (Steffon Armitage, for example, and Tom Varndell - both with considerable 7s experience in their careers) and they were rubbish.

I'd be disappointed if we randomly brought in someone like Ashton, or Tom Wood, or something, and sh*t all over the guys who are 7s specialists for the sake of having names that casual fans might recognise.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Did you not see Jack Clifford become one of our most important players in the sevens this season?

Simon Amor has been very open about wanting to re-establish the sevens team as a pathway to the full senior side.

RW: Should sevens be used as a development tool for 15s, or should it stand alone?

SA: I don't believe sevens should stand alone. We've got some talented players in our squad who may well go on to play 15s one day, and although there will always be some specialist sevens players, I don't think they should be pigeonholed. Using sevens to develop players is a proven model used around the world. It depends slightly on the position, but as a rule sevens players are excellent in broken field and phase play attack, and good decision makers.

You've already got Habana and Schalk Brits being called into the Blitzbokke for the Commonwealths.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Clifford being called up (who was already on the 7s circuit with invitationals) for a couple of rounds is massively different to drafting in EPS players.
I don't think the Blitzbokke have been smart in calling up Brits and Habana, and I've seen a lot of people saying the same - bringing two people completely new to the setup in for one tournament is a recipe for disaster, especially as they've spent so long in the XV-a-side-game, it's going to take them a while to adjust to 7s and to learn how to play off the guys around them. I remember New Zeland bringing a few players in (Hosea Gear and Kaino? or was it Messam? Can't remember) and they didn't do amazingly - certainly not as well as the 7s specialists, and I'd be surprised if they did it again for the commonwealth.
7s and XVs are far more different than people expect.


I'd rather reward the 7s players, who are doing a damn fine job as it is, than replace them with guys who want to win an olympic medal/aren't 7s players for the sake of newspaper headlines.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He was called up - he only ended up playing a couple of stages because of injury - but he was sorely missed.

"A lot of people" - but not the coaches... which is the important bit here - because this is about whether they will, not whether they should.

Gordon Tiejtens has also been very clear about wanting to bring XV's players in as long as they commit to playing in the world series.
I'm yet to see a sevens coach who has been opposed to it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He was called up - he only ended up playing a couple of stages because of injury - but he was sorely missed.

Ah, didn't realise he was injured.
I remember them specifically saying he was only called up for the east-Asian legs, presumed he'd just been dropped for the Scotland/London.

Gordon Tiejtens has also been very clear about wanting to bring XV's players in as long as they commit to playing in the world series.
I'm yet to see a sevens coach who has been opposed to it.

That's the crux of my argument - if players want to play in the commonwealth or the Olympics they should also play in the world series.
I don't want to see players parachuted in just for the big tournaments, as it's disruptive for the side, they haven't earned their spot and I'm yet to see a side improve because of it.

WRT young players, I think it's great for them and their development. Alex Gray wasn't getting game time at London so went to England 7s for the season, and I believe he's now centrally contracted there. No idea whether he'll come back to XVs any time soon, but it's better than him rotting away holding tackle bags, or being loaned out to a NL1 side.

 

[welshglory]

Thinking about it again it could be a good idea got Earle to be involved in 7's this year, it certainly didn't harm wade's running game. I can't see Sarries giving him that much game time either. He's got way too much ability to be stuck in the 7's set up though.

 

[Peat]

It makes sense for guys like Earle, Charlie Walker, and other gas men who maybe don't have the greatest prospects next season to take a season out and sharpen their loose skills. I'd be up for that.

If we could persuade a few guys like, say, Elliot Daly, Miles Benjamin, Varndell, guys with big broken field skills who don't appear to be getting anywhere with the current England set-up to have a go as well, that'd be cool, but only if they commit for a nice long time...

There's a problem in that I don't think a household name would be able to go to the World Cup, go straight to the Sevens circuit, adapt in time, play the Olympics, then come back and adapt back to real rugby for the Lions tour. Going to the Olympics is cool, but it shouldn't precede those two events... and I suspect they pay better too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You guys know that IRB reg 9 applies next year - so the World Series counts as an international release window, which clubs have to release players for.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't think there's a problem with the quality of our wingers, I think there is a problem with how they are used. We keep them stuck on the wings and the only ball they get is one that has been shovelled across to them without any real thought and in abolutely no space. Yarde can handle this ok but others can't. We don't follows the Welsh mentality of bashing wingers. If we changed how we operated, I think our wingers could be deadly.

 

[Patchey]

Our wingers only seem to be used well off the set piece. The last two tries England wingers have scored in a test have been Nowell and Yarde running nice lines of a set play I think.

Interesting that in the Crusaders and BaaBaas games our wingers seen to have been brought into the game more. Why doesn't this happen with the 'First XV' ?

 

[Peat]

I've been wondering that as well Patchey. Our wingers made hay against the Argies as well. The moment a serious match comes around though, they might as well have a pipe and slippers on.

 

[goodNumber10]

I've been wondering that as well Patchey. Our wingers made hay against the Argies as well. The moment a serious match comes around though, they might as well have a pipe and slippers on.

pressure isn't it?

against the Argies they had more time and space that gets shut down the higher you go, that's why hunting is so important.

I don't understand the English pattern of keeping someone on the touchline in attack - i presume it's for the kick chase/kick pass but for me i want people following the ball, and those options are as and when they arise.