[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[ratsapprentice]

Anyway, to be honest, I prefer Gloucester to England. It doesn't make you a bad person to prefer the club-side of sports...

Absolutely.

The trouble is that people in power who also prefer clubs (i.e. the club owners themselves) don't really give a **** about the people who are passionate about their national team.
That's why it's important that we create a proper balance, not marginalize and water-down either side of the game - because to do so, is to **** on the fans of either persuasion.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

In terms of the possible Marler injury and our loosehead options...

...Does anyone have any reason to think that Nathan Catt is anything more than just a solid club player? I ask because I genuinely don't know, but I can't say his performances have made me take notice of him in the past.

On the other hand I feel some on here may be underating Mullan - he's a good scrummager, certainly not a destructive one but alongside a good tighthead such as Wilson he could certainly contribute to a dominant scrum. He's also a surprisingly powerful ball carrier especially close to the line -surprising in that his size is nothing to speak of - and his carrying technique is good. He also has some wheels, good fitness and work ethic; there was one time in the Stade fixtures where he alone chased a kick to touch the length of the field and prevented a quick throw in. He's entirely the sort of guy who should do well in this England set-up and I wouldn't stress too much about him starting a test against the Kiwis.

Re. club versus country I agree with the above in that the balance is all important. They should complement and not exclude one another. Through the 2000's up until about 2009 whenever England were poor and ending each six nation in disappointment I could just think, ***** it, Wasps will do me proud as at the time they were top of the tree. In the last couple of years it's pretty much been the other way round. I'm looking forward to a time when I can count on both of them to be successful!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Choosing between Catt and Paul James is a heads or tails call at the minute for Bath.
PJ is a more destructive (read: illegal) scrummager, but Catt is much better in the loose and gives away fewer penalties because of his, ahem, *more conservative* scrummaging.

I included him in that stat compilation:

So in short - I would feel comfortable if he was on the bench for the first test, possibly even if he started.
He's not going to overtake Marler or Corbs, but he's definitely good enough to jump Mullan and Waller IMO.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Do you have access to any similar stats for Mullan?
It's probably the old club bias rearing its ugly head which has led me to think Mullan is better, I guess.

Interesting to note that Catts stats are better than Marlers across most areas (the number of passes simply reflects the way Quins pay, as they love to shift the ball away from contact) yet we seem to all be in agreement that Catt might not be good enough to overtake Marler. Which is where it gets confusing/interesting; we know stats don't pick up everything, but what exactly is it missing out here? I suppose in terms of the above stats its scrummaging first and foremost which isn't / can't be reflected. And Marler has really come in as a scrummager.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Marler and Catt are both quick and agile as **** for props, as ball carriers I'd put them about equal, with Mako ahead of everyone else.
Mullan is pretty good with ball in hand when in form, but not quite as good as Joe or Nathan IMO.
Waller is ok in this regard, but as an individual I haven't seen any great talent there.

Marler is considerably more physical in defence than any of his competitors - he's very, very good here.
They're all decent defenders from what I've seen.

Scrummaging wise - Marler and Corbisiero are out in front.
Then I'd say Catt, Waller and Mullan are roughly similar - they will all do better/worse depending on who their opponent is.
Mako is behind them for his inconsistency.

 

[goodNumber10]

Anyone seen this guff from Steve Hansen? Apparently we won't move the test series back because we think it will be an advantage to the All Blacks. And so it begins.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27603506

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hansen thinks the three-Test series should have been postponed to ensure England could select their top players.

Right, good.

"I don't know why they don't want to do that.
"They must think it would give an advantage to us, but in fact it would give an advantage to them."

Ah, ya fackin' blew it.

 

[goodNumber10]

actual Lol!

 

[Jaguares]

These tests without the best English players is ludicrous and absurd such as Pumas' June Tests in the last 3 years. This is what happened last June when England made ​​their South America tour.

You had the best players in the Premiership as Mike Brown, Joe Marler, Billy Vunipola, Jonny May, Marland Yarde, Courtney Lawes, David WilsonMike Brown, Freddie Burns, Billy Twelvetrees and others many of which now form the England's starting XV. So England going to try a little of what we tested last June.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You had the best players in the Premiership as Mike Brown, Joe Marler, Billy Vunipola, Jonny May, Marland Yarde, Courtney Lawes, David WilsonMike Brown, Freddie Burns, Billy Twelvetrees and others many of which now form the England's starting XV. So England going to try a little of what we tested last June.

Except that we, again, were missing players to the Lions.
And our players are unable to play in the first test, whereas your players were intentionally rested.

...so chippy.

 

[Jaguares]

Except that we, again, were missing players to the Lions.
And our players are unable to play in the first test, whereas your players were intentionally rested.

...so chippy.

In both cases are organizational problems. Good luck in the Maori Tour!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yours was completely voluntary... there was no conflict there at all.

 

[McTallshort]

Absolutely.

The trouble is that people in power who also prefer clubs (i.e. the club owners themselves) don't really give a **** about the people who are passionate about their national team.
That's why it's important that we create a proper balance, not marginalize and water-down either side of the game - because to do so, is to **** on the fans of either persuasion.

Who are you referring to with this Rats? All the English club owners?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not necessarily all of them, some of them definitely - it's hard to know what the ones who don't put themselves out to the media feel.

My hunch confirmed in the Daily Mail...

While the bulk of England's senior stars will be gearing up for the first Test against New Zealand on June 7, head coach Stuart Lancaster has refused to rule out drafting in anyone who impresses against the Barbarians.

​

Young Harlequins duo Sinkler and Collier will battle it out for the fourth tighthead spot for England's senior tour, with a final batch of call-ups to be finalised on Monday.

I'm hopeful that Sinckler, Simpson/Robson and Roko are all already pencilled in - and that depending on injuries in the final (and I'm guessing that there will be one or two) another couple of guys will also be traveling down.

 

[Maverick1987]

I'd be loving it if sinkler, Robson and roko got picked for the tour . Not sure we would see them much other than crusaders game . Looks like Ashton will be back in but who do you think they will take out of Foden or Goode ?

 

[Patchey]

They'll go with Goode. He covers 10 as well as 15 and past selections show the management have a bias towards picking him over almost any other fullback when they can.

Anyone who plays on Sunday and then tours will almost certainly be for the Crusaders game only. I can't see anyone who was initially picked only to face the Barbarians suddenly being in contention for a test spot. I guess it'll depend on how they play but Sinckler, Robson, Daly would be my pick of guys to get on the plane on Monday.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Roko will replace Watson, I reckon.

I would've expected Watson to play vs Baabaas and then travel down for the Crusaders game, and now Roko will instead.

I don't expect to see Robson or Simpson tour, I think that Dickson and Wigglesworth will. Would be very happy to be surprised though!

If Sinkler plays well then I think he'll go: we need four props down there (I wouldn't want to play our test props midweek, even from the bench) and there's only three there now.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If Sinkler plays well then I think he'll go: we need four props down there (I wouldn't want to play our test props midweek, even from the bench) and there's only three there now.

They've confirmed this - whoever plays better will travel.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ah right, that's good then. Either would make a big step up on the bench in the second/third test.

 

[goodNumber10]

sorry, i missed something... what happned to Watson?