[2014 EOYT] Wales vs New Zealand

[ENZED-88]

Hey guys new to the forum, looking forward to the game I think wales will be able to hang with the AB for the first 60 then the All Blacks will remind everyone who's top of the food chain in the last 20. Looking forward to seeing if SBW an Conrad can contain those big Welshmen in the midfield.

 

[Shaggy]

Hey guys new to the forum, looking forward to the game I think wales will be able to hang with the AB for the first 60 then the All Blacks will remind everyone who's top of the food chain in the last 20. Looking forward to seeing if SBW an Conrad can contain those big Welshmen in the midfield.

Welcome ENZED-88 ... should be some huge collisions in those backlines for sure

... @ you guys playing with the ratings ... what's the point in assigning some number against the players, when there's no criteria as to how a value is determined?

What's up with the turf? http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/63439759/McCaw-diplomatic-over-potential-turf-issues

 

[Jaguares]

The head to head rating things is pretty useless. However, people going nuts over the ratings given are not understanding how individual ability counts for relatively little when you get down to a dual between two of the top teams in the world. The All blacks are the best because they all interact like one organism. If you look at their tries, generally they are real team efforts. The crucial part being the support play, which they do amazingly. There are exceptions of course where you see individual efforts from nowhere, but its all about team cohesion.

Looking at the rating for each player individually i don't think they are far wrong (though obv biased in the article)

For the record, here's how i would rate them individually. (i fricken love meaningless ratings and lists)

15. Halpenny (9) Smith (8)

14. Cuthbert (7) Savea (10)

13. Davies (9) Smith (10)

12. Roberts (8) SBW (9)

11. North (10) Piutau (8)

10. Biggar (7) Barrett (8)

9. Webb (7) Smith (8)

8. Faletau (8) Read (10)

7. Warburton (9) McCaw (9)

6. Lydiate (7) Kaino (9)

5. AWJ (9) Whitelock (9)

4. Ball (7) Retallick (9)

3. Lee (7) Crockett (7)

2. Hibbard (7) Coles (7)

1. James (7) Franks (8)

Halfpenny better than Ben Smith?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Individual ratings are pretty pointless as they say nothing of how well people function in a team or system. The ratings on Wales online are a complete joke. Wales 1 point behind the ABs... Wales haven't beaten them for decades and have been losing their recent games (lost to the big 3 and England and Ireland this year). On the flip side NZ have lost 1 game this year and non last year. They have also beaten England 4 times in a row. I do think the Welsh have got in the habit of hyping up their players. North and Halfpenny I'd rate as world class at their best but the others I wouldn't. Not that they are bad but certainly can't be classed as competing to be the best in their position.

So Wales can win this but the ABs are extremely consistant and have an ability to win that is unmatched, even if it means by 1 point in the dying seconds.

 

[Jbobo]

Halfpenny better than Ben Smith?

Proven at Fullback at international level? Yes, easily the better player.

Fixed your Wales ratings
Halfpenny -> 7.5
Cuthbert -> 5
Davies -> 7
Roberts -> 7 (always solid in defence but ineffectual in attack in maybe 80% of games)
North -> 8
Biggar -> 7.5 (torn between 7 and 8)
Webb -> 6 (potentially a couple higher, just needs to settle down at international level)
Faletau -> 8
Warburton -> 7.5
Lydiate -> 6
AWJ -> 8
Ball -> 7
Lee -> 7 (expecting big things in future though)
Hibbard -> 8 (when he nails his darts, he's my favourite hooker in the world)
James -> 6 (decent in the scrum, too prone to give away a penalty in the loose)

Can't imagine how low your ratings for the England team are them...But each to their own. I agree about Biggar being between 7-8 and hibbard on a good day being an 8. Also agree Webb could end up higher, but maybe i should have started at 6. I actually agree with most of the ratings, but only if you downgrade all other teams also, as i think we have 2-3 players who are unmatched/barely matched in the word. Sue me. I think Wales have the best man for man team in the NH, just a severe lack of team cohesion.n Absolutely not good enough tp beat the All Blacks without a stunning performance. But the again, neither can England, Ireland or France...


Sorry for the lack of Grammar...me be drunk. Obviously, when you look at my ratings

- - - Updated - - -

Individual ratings are pretty pointless as they say nothing of how well people function in a team or system. The ratings on Wales online are a complete joke. Wales 1 point behind the ABs... Wales haven't beaten them for decades and have been losing their recent games (lost to the big 3 and England and Ireland this year). On the flip side NZ have lost 1 game this year and non last year. They have also beaten England 4 times in a row. I do think the Welsh have got in the habit of hyping up their players. North and Halfpenny I'd rate as world class at their best but the others I wouldn't. Not that they are bad but certainly can't be classed as competing to be the best in their position.

So Wales can win this but the ABs are extremely consistant and have an ability to win that is unmatched, even if it means by 1 point in the dying seconds.

But although i agree Halfpenny an North are true world class plyers, I would also count AWJ and Warburton (when on form, easily as good as anyone else)

Each of these players would eaither walk in, or challenege the best of any player in the world for their position.

Bear in mind, that the best players look about 30% better when playing in the the All Blacks, they are just surrounded by other players who are pretty much the best of the best which helps hugely.

 

[inteNZity]

Hey guys new to the forum, looking forward to the game I think wales will be able to hang with the AB for the first 60 then the All Blacks will remind everyone who's top of the food chain in the last 20. Looking forward to seeing if SBW an Conrad can contain those big Welshmen in the midfield.

welcome ENZED 88, I hope its a close game, a real slog, trench warfare, I think the welsh have the size and aggression and experience together as a team to push this AB team to a higher level, would be great to see Kaino and read have to dig deep into the game, Im expecting a big game from Sonny, this is just the stage he will love, he will understand the importance of the occasion for him and the team. His combo with Barrett will be intriguing.

 

[Jbobo]

By the way, i've got to say i love this thread for the NZ supporters more than anything...Complete honestly and humility regarding their team. It's probably easier as winners, but they are generally very fair and humble regarding their rugby and have serious thoughts to contribute (better than thoust). Keep it up lads. Without sounding fecitious, i hope that this caries on regardless of whether it is close, and due to referee decisions. I'll try my best on my part too (canny promise).

No more Jack Daniels... Please! *gulp* *gulp*


Love and peace and apples and s**t


Edit -Holy crap my grammar hahahahaha

 

[ENZED-88]

You would rate Warburton alongside Mccaw ? Thats insane bro, dont get me wrong i think Warburtons a good player top 10 openside for sure, ive heard the guy in a few interveiws an he seems like a really genuine humble guy,but to be honest with you he doesnt deserve to lace Mccaws boots let alone be ranked beside him (Not many do)... but i'll probably be proven wrong(as usual) with warburton getting man of the match

 

[Jbobo]

You would rate Warburton alongside Mccaw ? Thats insane bro, dont get me wrong i think Warburtons a good player top 10 openside for sure, ive heard the guy in a few interveiws an he seems like a really genuine humble guy,but to be honest with you he doesnt deserve to lace Mccaws boots let alone be ranked beside him (Not many do)... but i'll probably be proven wrong(as usual) with warburton getting man of the match

Nowadays yes, McCaw at his height, no. Warbuton has been underrated for a while now. On his day, he's incredible. As is McCaw

 

[austingtir]

Nowadays yes, McCaw at his height, no. Warbuton has been underrated for a while now. On his day, he's incredible. As is McCaw

Warburton is without doubt a great jackler.... but honestly other than that imo he's pretty one dimensional... o.k he can tackle good aswell.. The amount of game breaking clutch moments Mccaws come up with and his ability to adapt is the reason he's the greatest ever rugby player. And this year has underlined that hes not done with yet. Dan Carter on the other hand... now he's past his best.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

So I'm in Melbourne for the weekend.

Foxtel aren't showing this match, you need Setanta, which very few people/pubs have. Guess I'm watching when I get back

 

[Shaggy]

So I'm in Melbourne for the weekend.

Foxtel aren't showing this match, you need Setanta, which very few people/pubs have. Guess I'm watching when I get back

I'm not sure it's televised here in Canada either ... They haven't televised any of the other matches (as far as I can tell), so I might be doing what Little Guy has done and be canceling my subscription ... I usually listen to it through Internet radio, then watch it online later

 

[Jbobo]

Warburton is without doubt a great jackler.... but honestly other than that imo he's pretty one dimensional... o.k he can tackle good aswell.. The amount of game breaking clutch moments Mccaws come up with and his ability to adapt is the reason he's the greatest ever rugby player. And this year has underlined that hes not done with yet. Dan Carter on the other hand... now he's past his best.

I think Warburton is a better carrier than Mccaw. Maccaw is probably in the top three of the best modern players list, but he's not the best player ever at all in my opinion. Probably best flanker though.

Kiwis have been writing off Carter too soon, give him a chance he's only just returned to international rugby!

 

[ENZED-88]

Mccaw is no1 without a doubt. The aura that surrounds the man is unmatched, the respect he demands from HIS men is unrivalled because the way he fights and competes for his team from the kickoff all the way through till the ,80th not a minute does he not give it his all. It must be immense playing next to that man and trying to match his deeds on the field. He is the best player on the team and the greatest my country has produced, there is NO ONE who could lead his men better than him, could you say the same about Warburton?

As for Carter he needs a good super 15 season next year to try and earn back his jersey because at the moment hes not the best 10 in the country, an if your not the best you dont make the team, unless your name's israel dagg

 

[Jbobo]

Warburton is not as good as Mccaw at his best, not by a stretch. But at the moment, he is just as good. Mccaw is the best leader in rugby, that may make him extremely valuable to the all Blacks, but that doesn't make him the best in the world. If Warburton was a Kiwi, i think he would have taken over the mantle by now tbh. Being surrounded by the best team players in the world has helped Mccaw no bounds. A little while ago he was phenomenal, but now, i think he's overrated in general. Fantastic player, but overrated.

 

[welshglory]

Really?...

I rate Warburton no doubt but come on.

McCaw has that ability to read a game and push the line and influence the ref that no other player has. Warburton does the basics very well but he doesn't do anything to great.

 

[Jbobo]

Regardless of Mccaws ability to 'turn a game' i think Warburton is currently an equal as a player and will in the next couple of years prove my point. Mccaw was great, but now is very good. This is just my opinion. End of

 

[welshglory]

Well you did also say that you think he would have taken over McCaw's mantle, that's a pretty big statement to make regardless

Warburton's weakness as well as most Nh opensides is a lack of vision and skills, in the contact and defence were right up there though

 

[Jbobo]

Well you did also say that you think he would have taken over McCaw's mantle, that's a pretty big statement to make regardless

Warburton's weakness as well as most Nh opensides is a lack of vision and skills, in the contact and defence were right up there though

I've seen an increasing amount of errors enter into Mccaw's game. He's still a marathon man with his effort, but so is Warburton. I think Warburton is better than any other option NZ have at 7, and so naturally I think he would have taken over the mantle. Either way, it's all arbitrary anyway. Neither is better than eachother atm, but obviously down to age, Warburton has the brighter future. Mccaw has by far the greater past. Meh i'm bored now.

Try to understand what i am saying about Mccaw's past. anyone who tells me he is the same player as he was 4-5 years ago is not going to persuade me one iota.

 

[Mikel92]

I've seen an increasing amount of errors enter into Mccaw's game. He's still a marathon man with his effort, but so is Warburton. I think Warburton is better than any other option NZ have at 7, and so naturally I think he would have taken over the mantle. Either way, it's all arbitrary anyway. Neither is better than eachother atm, but obviously down to age, Warburton has the brighter future. Mccaw has by far the greater past. Meh i'm bored now.

Try to understand what i am saying about Mccaw's past. anyone who tells me he is the same player as he was 4-5 years ago is not going to persuade me one iota.

I understand and respect what you're saying. I've actually long held the view that McCaw was probably at his best around 2005/2006. I remember when he ran down Mark Gerard (Australian winger) and implemented a turnover. It summed up how great the man is for me personally. He probably hasn't been at that level in awhile. I was saying the same thing before the last World Cup. That's not to say he's bad. I would still say he's the best in the world. I think he was better under the old laws where you didn't have to release the player.

I'd still have him in my "World" team or whatever. He probably could school Hooper up on a few things, and imo has a more all-round game than someone like David Pocock. At times the ball handling and ruck technique isn't quite what it use to be. But he still turns on some man of the match performances every now and then and his presence is worth everything. There was once upon a time where if NZ didn't have Dan Carter or Ricchie McCaw, we wouldn't be easy-beats, but we'd be a drastically different side. I don't think that's the case now. The fact that there are more key players in the squad than just those two is probably a great thing.