[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

[goodNumber10]

Sigh!

Not sure how much you can rely on the injury excuse.

I agree they aren't excuses but they are reasons, and to make out otherwise is just plain wrong, to make out they don't matter because Ireland got a win is just daft mate. Sorry.

try reading next time...

 

[Mikel92]

Call them whatever ya want mate

 

[donmcdazzle]

Thought SBW went reasonably well. Can't be too harsh; from League to a festival game, to one of the biggest threats at next year's world cup at home .. pretty big ask. I'd like to see him get involved more and given a fair chance to come into his own again. Not sure if tinkering every week is the answer. Although I gotta say, I think they have to drop Cruden. In truth, I was never a fan but we can't afford to have goal kicking like that.

Only if it's for DC. Cruden had a really good game, other than goal kicking obviously. He made a nice clean break, put SBW into a nice gap (before that offload that went to deck), and generally distributed very well. Barrett's kicking was worse than Crudens, he missed two from near enough in front.

Dagg has to go. His kicking isn't that much better than Smiths to offset the fact he can't tackle and doesn't offer anything on the counter attack.

 

[smartcooky]

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=15

See the video accompanying 15.5 (g). The player is grounded and after this reaches out on a second movement of the arm. This is deemed to be immediate. That situation is no different to the Cruden one.

You are just not getting it are you?

NO ONE is suggesting that placing the ball forward after it has been grounded in a tackle is illegal.

What we are saying is that if you do so, and fail to ground the ball over the line, and then you make a SUBSEQUENT ATTEMPT TO PLACE THE BALL you will be penalised for "not releasing" because that additional attempt is beyond immediate

You live in the UK, so I suggest you do an ELRA course so that you at least give yourself a chance to know what you are talking about.

 

[Larksea]

I don't disagree with anything Ewis said.

They are starting to hit their ceiling which is a worry. It doesn't help our best and key players are injury prone. It's killing us now. NZ never ever get long injuries. We have 10 of which 6 are first teamers.

also for the record. Farrell will never be dropped. I'm sorry he won't. Anyone saying otherwise is clueless now. Not to be negative but I can't see Ford getting game time against SA or Samoa. They will use it to get Farrell fit and say he is getting caps for 10 minutes. He's not, but Farrell will not be dropped regardless no matter what people say.

NZ never get injuries? Ever heard of Tony Woodcock? Ma'a Nonu? Cory Jane? Dan Carter? (in the squad now but on a light load and almost certainly didn't play because hes returning from a long term injury)

I actually think the reason the AB's over the last ~6 years or so has been so good is that they dont lose matches when they have injuries. Its about depth, experience and team culture. maybe a bit of "rotation"

McCaw has been injured. Cane and Matt Todd were superb.
Dan Carter has been injured and Cruden & Barrett have stepped up. We even had a critical test where Carter, Cruden and Barrett were injured and Tom Taylor was simply fantastic we also have Colin Slade.
Read has been injured and Kaino & Messam have filled in Now we have Vito to cover 8 as well.
Kaino has been injured and with Messam playing they lost nothing.
Tony Woodcock has been injured all season, Crockett and Moody have done really well.
Ma'a Nonu is gone for the season, Conrad Smith has missed games due to injury. Fekitoa has been superb, Crotty has emerged as a genuine test player and now SBW is back.
Romano has been gone the whole season and a lot of the last two seasons, he was a first choice lock when he first got injury problems. Retalick has since established himself as probably the best lock in world rugby in his absence.
Both Sam Whitelock and Retalick have missed games due to injury. Thrush has surprised a lot of people me included with how well he has done. Tuipulotu has come from nowhere this season and we still have Dom Bird sitting at home. Luatua has also been used as lock cover on the bench because of injuries, I actually think he adds a lot to the side in that position.
Final note the All Blacks back 3 stocks, 5 world class players Ben Smith, Dagg, Savea, Jane, Piutau. 4 of them can play fullback and wing. Been great cover, all have missed games due to injury/fatigue. Actually Piutau had all but established himself as a first choice winger before he went out with a long term injury. Also note that Barrett can play 15 or even wing if need be. He's actually a freakishly good 15. Barrett is kinda like Nick Evans but just a lot better...

6-7+ years ago it used to impact the team when we had injures and if either Carter, McCaw, Woodcock, Franks, Read, Whitelock, Nonu, Conrad Smith were injured it was an absolute disaster. now we have genuine test players as alternatives in all positions, sometimes actually 2-3 and what was our problem positions for backup (10 & 7) now have ridiculous amounts of depth.

when you think about it, what it is IMO. Is actually Graham Henry's rotation policy finally really paying off. Plus the current coaches willingness and ability to Blood New Players. The team culture created with Henry and continued/improved by Hansen & Co. And the leadership within the squad.

I can understand why people think the AB's dont get injuries, I assure you they do >.<

interesting reading the comments. I've not seen the game yet MySky+ didn't record it.... Got it recorded now will watch it tonight

 

[nzlizard]

Only if it's for DC. Cruden had a really good game, other than goal kicking obviously. He made a nice clean break, put SBW into a nice gap (before that offload that went to deck), and generally distributed very well. Barrett's kicking was worse than Crudens, he missed two from near enough in front.

Dagg has to go. His kicking isn't that much better than Smiths to offset the fact he can't tackle and doesn't offer anything on the counter attack.

Yup thought Cruden had a good game apart from kicking as well, his running game was great as was his general awareness, Barretts kicking wasn't any better this week, although he was most probably kicking in worse conditions but easier kicks.

Have to admit I was like don't take Carter on tour, now I am like lets start him next week and see how he goes.

Was really impressed with SBW, a couple of times he could have made smarter choices but on the whole he did an excellent job. Next week put SBW and Fekitoa at 12 & 13.

Would like to see a back 3 of Piutau, Smith and Savea also.

 

[ianw16]

Yup thought Cruden had a good game apart from kicking as well, his running game was great as was his general awareness, Barretts kicking wasn't any better this week, although he was most probably kicking in worse conditions but easier kicks.

Have to admit I was like don't take Carter on tour, now I am like lets start him next week and see how he goes.

Was really impressed with SBW, a couple of times he could have made smarter choices but on the whole he did an excellent job. Next week put SBW and Fekitoa at 12 & 13.

Would like to see a back 3 of Piutau, Smith and Savea also.

Might not have a choice, as Conrad Smith is off home to attend to an "urgent family matter".
http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/conrad-smith-leaves-all-blacks-tour-6126248
Maybe Fekitoa, Crotty?

 

[Larksea]

ok so Dom Bird is not sitting at home he was in the UK for the baba's game and now he joins the squad because of Retalicks injury (wait I thought AB's dont get injured?)

Also Conrad Smith has come home to attend to a family matter.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10725223/Conrad-Smith-leaves-All-Blacks-northern-tour

 

[goodNumber10]

ok so Dom Bird is not sitting at home he was in the UK for the baba's game and now he joins the squad because of Retalicks injury (wait I thought AB's dont get injured?)

Also Conrad Smith has come home to attend to a family matter.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10725223/Conrad-Smith-leaves-All-Blacks-northern-tour

No one has said New Zealand don't get injuries, they are discussing the impact of the injuries on the England squad and how that effected their performance - you do get that don't you?

 

[nzlizard]

Might not have a choice, as Conrad Smith is off home to attend to an "urgent family matter".
http://tvnz.co.nz/rugby-news/conrad-smith-leaves-all-blacks-tour-6126248
Maybe Fekitoa, Crotty?

Hoping for Fekitoa.

 

[Eyesack_P]

I doubt very much this will be the line up but I would love to see it.

Back 3 - savea/smith/piutau

Mid field - Carter/sonny/fekitoa

Richie & Sam cane at 6&7

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Might as well shift this discussion to the Scotland match thread gents

In terms of this match, well I think everything has been said that could be said.

 

[SomeOke]

How good is Piutau's under the high ball and his kicking game? I remember him being a deadly runner, with an amazing ability to beat players in Super Rugby but not much more, I know he mostly played FB at the Blues, so he should be good in theory. I only ask because the All Black habit of playing two "fullback" mold players in their back three has served them well against some of the strong kicking sides of the past few years, I do think Dagg has been a liability recently but before Smith there was Cory Jane possibly the best wing under the high ball.

 

[Larksea]

No one has said New Zealand don't get injuries, they are discussing the impact of the injuries on the England squad and how that effected their performance - you do get that don't you?

The post I replied to said specifically "NZ never ever get long injuries."

So how did you interpret that?

 

[goodNumber10]

The post I replied to said specifically "NZ never ever get long injuries."

So how did you interpret that?

ha! completely missed that, apologies.

 

[Larksea]

How good is Piutau's under the high ball and his kicking game? I remember him being a deadly runner, with an amazing ability to beat players in Super Rugby but not much more, I know he mostly played FB at the Blues, so he should be good in theory. I only ask because the All Black habit of playing two "fullback" mold players in their back three has served them well against some of the strong kicking sides of the past few years, I do think Dagg has been a liability recently but before Smith there was Cory Jane possibly the best wing under the high ball.

Piutau's great under the ball and kicking, which is the main reason he is selected as a winger, he will run rather than kick in many situations other FB's would kick which set him apart from many other FB's in super rugby. he really makes it work though he very rarely gets into trouble running when he should kick.

Post the 07 WC there was a change in selection thinking with All Black wingers before it was about big fast fijians and finishing ability and after it became more about all round skills, kicking, tackling and high ball work, counter attacking ability, kick chase and vision. Traditionally NZ wingers focused too much on running game and finishing.

Spot the difference 07 wingers: Rokocoko & Sivivatu. 11 wingers: Jane & Kahui - starting wingers for the final, both playing out of position. I personally think Kahui was/is the blueprint for the perfect winger, he was exactly what the All Blacks needed for the world cup and he was our best back in the final.

For the All Blacks it does seem Piutau's main focus is on wing and that he maybe even seen to be a midfield option long term. The Fullbacks are Dagg, Ben Smith and Barrett.

I still think you need your best 15 at 15, which is why IMO Ben Smith should be at 15 and Piutau, Dagg, Jane can fight over the 14 jersey.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Piutau's great under the ball and kicking, which is the main reason he is selected as a winger, he will run rather than kick in many situations other FB's would kick which set him apart from many other FB's in super rugby. he really makes it work though he very rarely gets into trouble running when he should kick.

Post the 07 WC there was a change in selection thinking with All Black wingers before it was about big fast fijians and finishing ability and after it became more about all round skills, kicking, tackling and high ball work, counter attacking ability, kick chase and vision. Traditionally NZ wingers focused too much on running game and finishing.

Spot the difference 07 wingers: Rokocoko & Sivivatu. 11 wingers: Jane & Kahui - starting wingers for the final, both playing out of position. I personally think Kahui was/is the blueprint for the perfect winger, he was exactly what the All Blacks needed for the world cup and he was our best back in the final.

For the All Blacks it does seem Piutau's main focus is on wing and that he maybe even seen to be a midfield option long term. The Fullbacks are Dagg, Ben Smith and Barrett.

I still think you need your best 15 at 15, which is why IMO Ben Smith should be at 15 and Piutau, Dagg, Jane can fight over the 14 jersey.

There's been a lot of talk about Piutau being a potential centre for NZ, though thankfully it's died down over the last six months.

We've seen nothing from Piutau to suggest he'd be a good centre. Physically, he'd be fine, but so would a whole host of players in NZ. Even when Perenara came onto the field as a backs replacement against USA he moved into centre and Piutau remained on the wing. So while perhaps, maybe, in the long term Piutau could be a quality centre, so too could just about anyone.

 

[Big Ewis]

..

woah, your avatar..tattooing the All-Blacks logo on a peanut ? That's just...that's just weird dude. I'm sorry, that's just messed up.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

question re the whole coles v hartley thing

Is there any reason they couldn't penalize hartley and bin coles? both teams get punished, one more then the other based on the severity of the action.

I don't think its right england got no punishment when hartley instigated it, otherwise we're just saying do all the foul play you like as long as you pick someone who's likely to blow their lid, a punch is fine as long as you punch someone known for biting!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

question re the whole coles v hartley thing

Is there any reason they couldn't penalize hartley and bin coles? both teams get punished, one more then the other based on the severity of the action.

I don't think its right england got no punishment when hartley instigated it, otherwise we're just saying do all the foul play you like as long as you pick someone who's likely to blow their lid, a punch is fine as long as you punch someone known for biting!

How, though?
They gave a penalty against Hartley, then reversed it.
It's not like they can give both teams a penalty.