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[2013 TRC] South Africa vs. New Zealand in Johannesburg (05/10/2013)

stormer2010 said:
I hear you.. I'll have to check the fine print; there is a difference between "anything French" and "Les Bleus/Le XV de France" so lets settle on Poite was a naughty boy? Do I get a bonus point for referring to a cock and a Frenchman in the same sentence?
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Does your insolence know no boundaries ?!
 
psychic duck said:
I would argue that New Zealand's win record of late is boosted by the fact the competition has weakened since the 2011 RWC. South Africa have lost or not been able to play a number of key players like Matfield, Burger, Smith, du Preez and Fourie and have been very much in a transitional phase losing several players at once. Australia have barely been able to field a near fully fit side since the RWC.

The 2005 or 2006 All Blacks side would have faced players like du Preez, Montgomery, Matfield, Burger or Sharpe, Gregan, Latham, Larkham, Mortlock and Giteau. All who are now missing for inferior players. Compare the South Africa and Australia lineups now from the ones at the RWC, I would guess that the lineups on paper look a lot more experienced and stronger than they are now. France used to be able to mount the odd challenge but now have turned into a pretty dire side as well. The challenge to the All Blacks dominance since the RWC has been pretty weak in all honesty, there's an argument that none of the other Tier 1 sides have really improved significantly since the RWC. And for that reason, I don't rate it as highly as some of the past All Blacks sides.
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I agree with pretty much everything you have said there mate. My original (poorly expressed) point was essentially that I think the ABs have improved since the RWC and I would stand by that. The two big losses are Kaino (Kaino WILL be back though) and Thorn but in all other areas (notably the halves and overall depth) they have either improved or are comparable with that World Cup winning squad.

Yup I think our record is boosted by weakened opposition, however, from reading the posts from our SA experts on their own team one might suspect many would disagree...So who knows I guess...
 
Owen Franks is still under an injury cloud after sustaining a groin injury against the Pumas. North Harbour tighthead Ben Afeaki will be called in as cover and Charlie Faumuina would be promoted to start if Franks was not fit.
 
I hope the ab selectors dont do something crazy and pick weepu on the bench or something
 
It's difficult to say where SA is at now relative to 2 or 3 years back. Last year was very tough certainly. I would argue that even though we are missing big names now many of those big names were underperforming 2/3 years back and some of them (M Steyn, JdV, Habana) have only regained some form under HM.

In the fornt row between Bismarck and Strauss we also have some form hookers over the bigger name in John Smit. Props are pretty much the same guys and I'd argue better now.

It difficult to replae Bakkies and Matfield but TBH Bakkies became ever more of a liability as he bought more and more into the media hype and label of 'enforcer'. Matfield well I'd take him still but he didn't contribute as much in the loose as I hope some of our up-and-comers will/should. Etzebeth is a great replacement and somewhere between the two good men we lost. I am sure we'll have a scary looking 2nd row soon in either 4Willemse/5Etzebeth or 4Etzebeth/5PSdT each combo bringing something different though a young combination.

Duane is actually contributing from 8 whereas Spies was a passenger for the last 4 years. Willem Alberts is no Juan Smith but what he does he does exceptionally well most times. Louw rounds of a well balanced trio at least more balanced than Burger/Smith/Spies was.

At 10 Steyn is in decent enough form and between Lambie and the regretably ever-injured Goosen we have better depth than ever. At 9 is our biggest problem with FdP only being semi-available. He is also is decent form after he was underperforming coming back from injury leading into the 2011 RWC. Hougaard is having personal issues. I back him to come good again and though not in the class of FdP we have good depth in the position.

At center we are missing Jaque Fourie but JdV is in better form than ever and in Serfontein, Engelbrecht (and a whole host of young centers bubbling under at provincial level) and Frans Steyn (assumig he gets back on track) we are in fine nick IMO.

At the back Habana and Kirchner are better than they were the last few years and we are starting to see alternatives to Kirchner developing while we wait for JPP to come back.

Our coaching staff are incomparable to the previous one which is possibly our biggest advantage over ourselves of the PdV era. So I would argue though we aren't possibly there yet we are close to being in a better spot than we were 3/4 years back.
 
stormer2010 said:
It's difficult to say where SA is at now relative to 2 or 3 years back. Last year was very tough certainly. I would argue that even though we are missing big names now many of those big names were underperforming 2/3 years back and some of them (M Steyn, JdV, Habana) have only regained some form under HM.

In the fornt row between Bismarck and Strauss we also have some form hookers over the bigger name in John Smit. Props are pretty much the same guys and I'd argue better now.

It difficult to replae Bakkies and Matfield but TBH Bakkies became ever more of a liability as he bought more and more into the media hype and label of 'enforcer'. Matfield well I'd take him still but he didn't contribute as much in the loose as I hope some of our up-and-comers will/should. Etzebeth is a great replacement and somewhere between the two good men we lost. I am sure we'll have a scary looking 2nd row soon in either 4Willemse/5Etzebeth or 4Etzebeth/5PSdT each combo bringing something different though a young combination.

Duane is actually contributing from 8 whereas Spies was a passenger for the last 4 years. Willem Alberts is no Juan Smith but what he does he does exceptionally well most times. Louw rounds of a well balanced trio at least more balanced than Burger/Smith/Spies was.

At 10 Steyn is in decent enough form and between Lambie and the regretably ever-injured Goosen we have better depth than ever. At 9 is our biggest problem with FdP only being semi-available. He is also is decent form after he was underperforming coming back from injury leading into the 2011 RWC. Hougaard is having personal issues. I back him to come good again and though not in the class of FdP we have good depth in the position.

At center we are missing Jaque Fourie but JdV is in better form than ever and in Serfontein, Engelbrecht (and a whole host of young centers bubbling under at provincial level) and Frans Steyn (assumig he gets back on track) we are in fine nick IMO.

At the back Habana and Kirchner are better than they were the last few years and we are starting to see alternatives to Kirchner developing while we wait for JPP to come back.

Our coaching staff are incomparable to the previous one which is possibly our biggest advantage over ourselves of the PdV era. So I would argue though we aren't possibly there yet we are close to being in a better spot than we were 3/4 years back.
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South Africa obviously had a better more experienced group of players in the last quad being held back by a dimwit coach. On paper South Africa were better in the last quad than they are now, and I feel they underachieved in not being far closer and the biggest challenger to the All Blacks for the entire 4 years.
 
stormer2010 said:
It's difficult to say where SA is at now relative to 2 or 3 years back. Last year was very tough certainly. I would argue that even though we are missing big names now many of those big names were underperforming 2/3 years back and some of them (M Steyn, JdV, Habana) have only regained some form under HM.

In the fornt row between Bismarck and Strauss we also have some form hookers over the bigger name in John Smit. Props are pretty much the same guys and I'd argue better now.

It difficult to replae Bakkies and Matfield but TBH Bakkies became ever more of a liability as he bought more and more into the media hype and label of 'enforcer'. Matfield well I'd take him still but he didn't contribute as much in the loose as I hope some of our up-and-comers will/should. Etzebeth is a great replacement and somewhere between the two good men we lost. I am sure we'll have a scary looking 2nd row soon in either 4Willemse/5Etzebeth or 4Etzebeth/5PSdT each combo bringing something different though a young combination.

Duane is actually contributing from 8 whereas Spies was a passenger for the last 4 years. Willem Alberts is no Juan Smith but what he does he does exceptionally well most times. Louw rounds of a well balanced trio at least more balanced than Burger/Smith/Spies was.

At 10 Steyn is in decent enough form and between Lambie and the regretably ever-injured Goosen we have better depth than ever. At 9 is our biggest problem with FdP only being semi-available. He is also is decent form after he was underperforming coming back from injury leading into the 2011 RWC. Hougaard is having personal issues. I back him to come good again and though not in the class of FdP we have good depth in the position.

At center we are missing Jaque Fourie but JdV is in better form than ever and in Serfontein, Engelbrecht (and a whole host of young centers bubbling under at provincial level) and Frans Steyn (assumig he gets back on track) we are in fine nick IMO.

At the back Habana and Kirchner are better than they were the last few years and we are starting to see alternatives to Kirchner developing while we wait for JPP to come back.

Our coaching staff are incomparable to the previous one which is possibly our biggest advantage over ourselves of the PdV era. So I would argue though we aren't possibly there yet we are close to being in a better spot than we were 3/4 years back.
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We always knew this was going to be a rebuilding phase after 2011.

We are miles ahead of where we were a year ago. We had 13 Debuts last year and only 4 so far this year. That alone shows a bit of settling down the squad.

Our forwards will perform better with these new laws. It suits our game much better. Our props who have always been big burly guys, will be more dominant at scrum time, it's one area of the game we take pride in. As for the locks, this is one area I'm actually in awe about the amount of great young locks we have so quickly after the legend pair is no longer part of the Boks. Etzebeth/Willemse/Kruger/PSDT are just a few names, and there are so many more. David Bullbring is another guy who has impressed me, even when he was at the Kings.

I know I might get criticism with my next comment, but I honestly think that with this new scrum laws, Pierre Spies could become a very vital asset and an essential attacking weapon to the Bok team. There aren't many forwards that can generate as much pace as he can from a scrum. His darting runs from the back of the scrum has been so effective, and could once again be just as/if not more effective as ever.

As for the backs, I'm not as worried as I was last year. Scrum half we are sorted. Fly half, Morne Steyn, Pat Lambie and Johan Goosen will remain the front runners. Katrakilis, Pollard, Elton and Tony Jantjies and a few others could also become part of the bok team. I honestly think next year we should stick with Lambie and Goosen (if they are injury free).

At centre, it's actually scary what these young guys can do. Serfontein and JJ are the frontrunners. But then we have Jordaan, Small-Smith, Ebersohn, De Allende, JDJ, Whitehead and so many more quality guys at very young ages. at wing and fullback, I think we have seen a lot of promise. Taute, Kolbe, Rhule, Blommetjies, Marais are just a few names. Another guy that has impressed me is Ulrich Beyers, and he can play Fullback, Wing and Centre....

it all comes down to coaching and maintaining momentum. And If I haven't stressed it enough in the past, I will just repeat. In Heyneke I trust.
 
As a punter you gotta go for the sure thing and Im going for the 'Boks by 15. Lets go South Africa!

I dont know what it is but I enjoy the South African anthem, its nice. Its in my head as I type.
 
heineken said:
We always knew this was going to be a rebuilding phase after 2011.

We are miles ahead of where we were a year ago. We had 13 Debuts last year and only 4 so far this year. That alone shows a bit of settling down the squad.

Our forwards will perform better with these new laws. It suits our game much better. Our props who have always been big burly guys, will be more dominant at scrum time, it's one area of the game we take pride in. As for the locks, this is one area I'm actually in awe about the amount of great young locks we have so quickly after the legend pair is no longer part of the Boks. Etzebeth/Willemse/Kruger/PSDT are just a few names, and there are so many more. David Bullbring is another guy who has impressed me, even when he was at the Kings.

I know I might get criticism with my next comment, but I honestly think that with this new scrum laws, Pierre Spies could become a very vital asset and an essential attacking weapon to the Bok team. There aren't many forwards that can generate as much pace as he can from a scrum. His darting runs from the back of the scrum has been so effective, and could once again be just as/if not more effective as ever.

As for the backs, I'm not as worried as I was last year. Scrum half we are sorted. Fly half, Morne Steyn, Pat Lambie and Johan Goosen will remain the front runners. Katrakilis, Pollard, Elton and Tony Jantjies and a few others could also become part of the bok team. I honestly think next year we should stick with Lambie and Goosen (if they are injury free).

At centre, it's actually scary what these young guys can do. Serfontein and JJ are the frontrunners. But then we have Jordaan, Small-Smith, Ebersohn, De Allende, JDJ, Whitehead and so many more quality guys at very young ages. at wing and fullback, I think we have seen a lot of promise. Taute, Kolbe, Rhule, Blommetjies, Marais are just a few names. Another guy that has impressed me is Ulrich Beyers, and he can play Fullback, Wing and Centre....

it all comes down to coaching and maintaining momentum. And If I haven't stressed it enough in the past, I will just repeat. In Heyneke I trust.
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Well ... actually I remember a few on here who weren't smart enough to realise this after last year.

South Africa were obviously in a large rebuilding phase especially in 2012, but some couldn't grasp this that the side was always going to have to start from afresh and build back up again. Yet instead of praised for winning most of the non All Black games with an inexperienced and experimental lineup and being the 2nd ranked side in the world, he gets criticised by idiots who judge the side based on previous standards failing to realise as you mentioned there were 13 new caps.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/showth...rated-International-team!&highlight=overrated
 
psychic duck said:
South Africa obviously had a better more experienced group of players in the last quad being held back by a dimwit coach. On paper South Africa were better in the last quad than they are now, and I feel they underachieved in not being far closer and the biggest challenger to the All Blacks for the entire 4 years.
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On paper, yes. Experience and talent-wise they were certainly better. All of SA feel that group of players either under performed, were off form or were just plain lazy with an incompetent coach. That said it was what it was. IMO though this current crop of players are playing more as a unit and are fitter and more able to fulfil potential. Our win percentage in this rebuilding phase is better than with a great squad not delivering on it's promise. No point in dwelling in the past and the fact is we are winning more now.

Edit; the best thing for me is we still have a lot of development to do and some personel coming back (overseas or injury) or waiting in the wings (Brussow, JPP, FdP, Jaque Fourie, Johan Goosen, Jaco Taute, Francois Hougaard, Arno Botha) or coming up through the ranks (PSdT, Pat Howard, William Small-Smith, Paul Willemse, well, a whole host of exciting newbies that we'll have to see how the develop) that MIGHT add value or just depth which we've seen is becoming ever more important.
 
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stormer2010 said:
On paper, yes. Experience and talent-wise they were certainly better. All of SA feel that group of players either under performed, were off form or were just plain lazy with an incompetent coach. That said it was what it was. IMO though this current crop of players are playing more as a unit and are fitter and more able to fulfil potential. Our win percentage in this rebuilding phase is better than with a great squad not delivering on it's promise. No point in dwelling in the past and the fact is we are winning more now.
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They were coaching themselves! Of course they were off form, unfit etc. There was nobody to tell them they were palying crap as PDV was a clown!

HM is at least kakking the guys out when they f-up. that was something that was lacking for 4 years!!
 
heineken said:
They were coaching themselves! Of course they were off form, unfit etc. There was nobody to tell them they were palying crap as PDV was a clown!

HM is at least kakking the guys out when they f-up. that was something that was lacking for 4 years!!
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I know. We all knew. SARU were just too stubborn to admit it and it would have been a HUGE PR f-up to admit their affirmative action appointment was a huge mistake. At the end there I was just hoping that the guys might have enough in them from the Jake White days to get up for a game or two and miraculously take the RWC like they did with the B&I Lions. Our development essentially halted for 4 years, yeah.
 
stormer2010 said:
I know. We all knew. SARU were just too stubborn to admit it and it would have been a HUGE PR f-up to admit their affirmative action appointment was a huge mistake. At the end there I was just hoping that the guys might have enough in them from the Jake White days to get up for a game or two and miraculously take the RWC like they did with the B&I Lions. Our development essentially halted for 4 years, yeah.
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We are digressing...

We should get back on topic.

Squad announcement at 12:30 CAT as usual...

The Springbok team to face New Zealand in Johannesburg is:

15. Zane Kirchner - 27 caps - 25 points
14. Willie le Roux - 8 caps - 10 points
13. JJ Engelbrecht(if fit) / Jan Serfontein - 9 caps / 8 caps - 20 points / 5 points
12. Jean de Villiers (captain) - 92 caps - 115 points
11. Bryan Habana - 91 caps - 255 points
10. Morné Steyn - 50 caps - 611 points
9. Fourie du Preez - 64 caps - 70 points
8. Duane Vermeulen - 12 caps - 5 points
7. Willem Alberts - 26 caps - 30 points
6. Francois Louw - 24 caps - 25 points
5. Juandré Kruger - 16 caps - 0 points
4. Eben Etzebeth - 19 caps - 0 points
3. Jannie du Plessis - 50 caps - 5 points
2. Bismarck du Plessis - 53 caps - 40 points
1. Tendai Mtawarira - 49 caps - 10 points
Replacements:
16. Adriaan Strauss - 29 caps - 25 points
17. Gurthrö Steenkamp - 45 caps - 30 points
18. Coenie Oosthuizen - 10 caps - 5 points
19. Franco van der Merwe - 0 caps - 0 points
20. Siya Kolisi - 7 caps - 0 points
21. Ruan Pienaar - 70 caps - 130 points
22. Pat Lambie - 28 caps - 55 points
23. Jan Serfontein / Juan de Jongh - 8 caps/ 14 caps - 5 points/ 20 points
 
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Only two things then; a bit of much over muchness WRT Engelbrecht and Serfontein and a damnit but expected that the other FvdM gets in on the bench ahead of PSdT. So still nothing to actually discuss hence I expect a lot more digressing.
 
stormer2010 said:
Only two things then; a bit of much over muchness WRT Engelbrecht and Serfontein and a damnit but expected that the other FvdM gets in on the bench ahead of PSdT. So still nothing to actually discuss hence I expect a lot more digressing.
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Haha, yeah. I think though that if JJ is not fit, the question will be if Jean moves to 13 or stays at 12??

Pity about PSDT. But I like Franco, he's a nice bloke and a grafter. Perhaps a bit better in the lineouts?
 
ALL BLACKS: Israel Dagg, Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (captain), Liam Messam, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Charlie Faumuina , Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock. Reserves: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Steven Luatua, Sam Cane, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Beauden Barrett, Charles Piutau

McCaw and Faumuina the only changes to the First XV. Cane moves back to the bench and Owen Franks is out with an Injury.
 
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Dayumm...

That's a pretty strong side. This is going to be an awesome game.
 

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