[2013 TRC] South Africa vs. Argentina in Soweto (17/08/2013)

[TRF_heineken]

well that's terribly uncalled for...
Anyways: right, didn't realize they had those other two injured (besides Lobbe).
But I couldn't believe the 66-6 score when I first came on. I mean taking 70+ points ?...but when the hell are all three forwards coming back then ?

Am I the only one seeing the irony here?

Yoe (satan) only starting to watch when the score was at 66-6, probably at the 66th minute mark??

 

[dragos03]

An awful match for Argentina, but is it really a surprise? They've had a terrible year so far and they lack the depth of the other Tier 1 nations.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They just don't seem to be bringing guys through to take over from their (aging) best players.

A good example of this was when Albacete went off and was replaced by Cabello.
That is a huge step down in quality.

 

[Tony Manx]

This. I wouldn't even mind the vuvuzuela's if they were used in some sort of meaningful way eg. every one blows them after a score or a great tackle, but it's just bored, obnoxious fans making random noise. I would love to know the mindset of a fan who uses one at a game, you've got to not give a flying rat's ass about fellow spectator's on either TV or especially in the Stadium with you.

They are the same mindless fans who, not having a soccer match to go to, attend rugby games about which they know b****r all and start a mexican wave........useless t**** who's only use is for their money at the turnstile!!

 

[smartcooky]

AS much as i hate to say this, isn't it obvious?

Both are similar styled competitions.
Both Argentina and Italy were late joiners.
Both Argentina and Italy are relatively weaker than the other participants.

And in both cases, those who control the competitions sat on their hands when Argentina and Italy were at their strongest.

Italy should have joined the Six-Nations at the beginning of the Professional era (1996) when they were having some success - wins over Ireland (twice), France, Argentina and Scotland, and were competitive with other Tier 1 teams. Instead, the 5N committee didn't let them in until 2000 when many of their old guard were retiring

Argentina should have been invited to join the Tri Nations straight after the 2007 RWC (where they finished 3rd). Instead, SANZAR pisspotted around for five years until 2012 when it was too late. By then, many of the stars of Argentina rugby, like Pichot, Manuel Contepomi, Miranda, Todeschini, Roncero, Ledesma, Durand, Ignacio Fernandez-Lobbe, Longo and Hasan were either retired or on the way to retiring.

IMO both the 6N committee and SANZAR have let these teams down badly.

 

[Big Ewis]

Roncero is retired, Albacete and Fernandez Lobbe I don't know when they will recover. I hope news this week.


Regards

shiiiiiiit, that's right !! I figured he was just like, injured all this time......or in the Bahamas. What a unit in the scrum !! The best kind it seems: "short", rhinoceros-like, very low center of gravity, no neck, latin, and pure thickness throughout. He was exactly an Argentinian Nicolas Mas in short.
The other two better get back promptly...

 

[psychic duck]

And in both cases, those who control the competitions sat on their hands when Argentina and Italy were at their strongest.

Italy should have joined the Six-Nations at the beginning of the Professional era (1996) when they were having some success - wins over Ireland (twice), France, Argentina and Scotland, and were competitive with other Tier 1 teams. Instead, the 5N committee didn't let them in until 2000 when many of their old guard were retiring

Argentina should have been invited to join the Tri Nations straight after the 2007 RWC (where they finished 3rd). Instead, SANZAR pisspotted around for five years until 2012 when it was too late. By then, many of the stars of Argentina rugby, like Pichot, Manuel Contepomi, Miranda, Todeschini, Roncero, Ledesma, Durand, Ignacio Fernandez-Lobbe, Longo and Hasan were either retired or on the way to retiring.

IMO both the 6N committee and SANZAR have let these teams down badly.

Manuel Contepomi, Nicolas Fernandez Miranda, Federico Todeschini and Martin Durand were hardly "stars" of Argentina rugby. Longo, Lobbe, Ledesma and Roncero have all have capable replacements.

A match at altitude against the Springboks is tough for the weaker teams. Argentina lost 63-9 in Jo'burg in 2008. Even a top 4 in the world side Australia have had bad matches at altitude, they lost 53-8 in 2008 a week after beating the Boks at sea level. They lost 49-0 as well in 2006. And Samoa recently conceded over 50 at altitude after coming into the game in good form. Altitude always increases a thrashing especially when a team hasn't prepared for it properly (like that Samoan side that lost heavily to the Lions), and better teams than Argentina have suffered.

I wasn't for Phelan getting his contract renewed after RWC 2011 and I feel Argentina were too satisfied by that tournament and too happy despite throwing away wins in the RC last year. But I think this match should be listed anomaly with matches such as Wales' 96-13 loss in Pretoria in 1998, Australia's 49-0 loss in 2006 and Samoa's 74-14 loss to the Lions this year. The return match will give a far better indication of the Pumas and what judgements need to be made on.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree for the most part, PD.

I don't know how much confidence I would have in Phelan if I was Argentine...

 

[smartcooky]

Manuel Contepomi, Nicolas Fernandez Miranda, Federico Todeschini and Martin Durand were hardly "stars" of Argentina rugby.Longo, Lobbe Ledesma Roncero have all have capable replacements.

Manuel Contepomi - 32 caps
Nicolas Fernandez Miranda - 43 caps
Federico Todeschini - 15 caps (222 points - 15 per game)
Martin Durand - 51 caps

then

Longo - 45 caps
Lobbe - 65 caps
Ledesma - 65 caps
Roncero - 55 caps

Stars they may not have been; adequade replacements they may have, but 371 Caps is a HELL of a lot of experience that needs to be replaced, and you can't do that with a wave of a magic wand.

Imagine if you were to suddenly lose Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton, Mike Phillips, Jamie Roberts, George North & Leigh Halfpenny from your team...... hang on, you don't have to imagine that do you....remind us how your team went in Japan earlier this year?

 

[rgman]

I agree for the most part, PD.

I don't know how much confidence I would have in Phelan if I was Argentine...

well, well let me see...Phelan mmmm I want his head on a spear! IMO he was horrible as a player and now as a coach: he gives insecurity to the team.

 

[Big Ewis]

psychic duck makes a good point, whether it's true or not and verifiable somehow or not, there is definitely smt fishy about playing in SA, Johannesburg in specific. That 53-8 result right after beating them at home (did Australia) and the rest of the enumerated matches clearly draw a tendency. I wish we could hear what the players themselves have to say about the altitude thing.
I'm not saying you're wrong psychic, I have no idea if you are. But I ask: how do you know it's altitude, and not perhaps some other factor, or simply a whole big coincidence altogether.

I mean looking at other results, the (B&I) Lions beat them easily in the '09 series in Johannesburg (9-28) after losing the first two. Surely they weren't playing as hard knowing they'd won the series, sure...and I'm certain we could find other examples, but it's all very thin argumentation at this point.

 

[Superalexmarket]

Open Letter to the President of the UAR Miguel Castillo, and especially the Technical Staff of the Pumas: Santigo Phelan, Fabian Turnes and Mauricio Reggiardo.

I write these words sunk in great pain and concern for the present and future of the Argentine Rugby.
What we saw this Saturday against South Africa is just the conclusion of a series of mistakes and bad decisions made ​​by the leaders and technical staff of the Pumas in the last five years.
How cuold be posible that we intented to play against 3 world superpowers of rugby as equals?
It's crazy to think that the Pumas can achieve the sync and manual skills similar to the 3 teams superprofesionales. Especially when we dont have a pro league in our country (I know it's ridiculous)
The Pumas must return to their roots, they are not able (yet) to create game, but they know how to destroy the opponent's game, his defensive play was what made them globally competitive, but unfortunately this has been shelved.
I know that Graham Henry at his best good will advise some of this change in the type of game the Argentine team. But what Henry unknown, is the idionsyncrasy, the feeling of the Argentine players.They always feel more comfortable defending and tackling is what we do and it worked for us.
Please Phelan, step aside and leave the staff, and Agustin Pichot is also responsible for this situation, because he chose Phelan to lead this process.
It is also true that we do not have the quality of players from 6 years ago.
(That was the golden generation of Argentine rugby)
But I also think we can do a better performance than these embarrassing past games.
Finally thanks to everyone who supports Argentine rugby even in its worst moments, for example: Yoe, Litlle Guy, Psychic, and Conrad too.
Sorry for my bad english, goodbye.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Manuel Contepomi - 32 caps
Nicolas Fernandez Miranda - 43 caps
Federico Todeschini - 15 caps (222 points - 15 per game)
Martin Durand - 51 caps

then

Longo - 45 caps
Lobbe - 65 caps
Ledesma - 65 caps
Roncero - 55 caps

Stars they may not have been; adequade replacements they may have, but 371 Caps is a HELL of a lot of experience that needs to be replaced, and you can't do that with a wave of a magic wand.

Imagine if you were to suddenly lose Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton, Mike Phillips, Jamie Roberts, George North & Leigh Halfpenny from your team...... hang on, you don't have to imagine that do you....remind us how your team went in Japan earlier this year?

Oh snap.

 

[psychic duck]

Manuel Contepomi - 32 caps
Nicolas Fernandez Miranda - 43 caps
Federico Todeschini - 15 caps (222 points - 15 per game)
Martin Durand - 51 caps

then

Longo - 45 caps
Lobbe - 65 caps
Ledesma - 65 caps
Roncero - 55 caps

Stars they may not have been; adequade replacements they may have, but 371 Caps is a HELL of a lot of experience that needs to be replaced, and you can't do that with a wave of a magic wand.

Imagine if you were to suddenly lose Gethin Jenkins, Alun Wyn Jones, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton, Mike Phillips, Jamie Roberts, George North & Leigh Halfpenny from your team...... hang on, you don't have to imagine that do you....remind us how your team went in Japan earlier this year?

Utterly ridiculous comparison. Those players you named retired all at different times, Longo in 2007 to Roncero just last October. Can you really not see the difference between losing those 8 players over a period of 5 years, compared to losing 20 odd players at one particular time and then the coaches optionally selecting kids instead of the best players?

Replacements for that second list of players are Ayerza, Carizza and Leguizamon who hardly lack experience and are adequate replacement even if they are not as good.

And as for the first list of players, you are seriously devaluing your argument with an average bunch of players none of which ever established themselves in the Pumas team, couldn't win European contracts for large parts of their career (allowing them to add to cap tallies in annual matches against Uruguay and Chile) and were not exactly big losses.

 

[smartcooky]

Utterly ridiculous comparison. Those players you named retired all at different times, Longo in 2007 to Roncero just last October. Can you really not see the difference between losing those 8 players over a period of 5 years, compared to losing 20 odd players at one particular time and then the coaches optionally selecting kids instead of the best players?

Replacements for that second list of players are Ayerza, Carizza and Leguizamon who hardly lack experience and are adequate replacement even if they are not as good.

And as for the first list of players, you are seriously devaluing your argument with an average bunch of players none of which ever established themselves in the Pumas team, couldn't win European contracts for large parts of their career (allowing them to add to cap tallies in annual matches against Uruguay and Chile) and were not exactly big losses.

Firstly, its all very well to say they have had five years (they haven't actually, Longo was the only one of those to retire in 2007, but they don't have a professional league to develop players. They have to rely on mostly the French leagues to do that for them. I'm not saying it can't be done, bnut it is not as easy as form Mew Zealand and Wales, where the Hansen/Gatland get to see all their up and comers in the one competition right on their own doorstep.

Secondly, do you really believe that players with 30 to 50 caps have not established themselves? Remember Argentina have played far less tests since 1996 than other Tier 1 countries, 139 to be exact, while England (199), Australia (219), New Zealand (207), South Africa (215) and France (208) have played much more often.

Since the 2007 RWC and prior to joining the Rugby Championship, Argentina played only 24 tests

2008 - 7
2009 - 5
2010 - 6
2011 - 6 (5 RWC)

In the same time period, New Zealand (about typical for tier 1) played 55

2008 - 15
2009 - 14
2010 - 14
2011 - 12 (7 RWC)

A career of 50 tests for a Kiwi or an Aussie could represent as little as four years, while the same number of tests for Argentina could be seven or eight years. Not established? Pfffft!

 

[Da Grappla]

Two ingredients for a better dish.

- Argentina should told to beef up and being disciplined.
- No more black fake fans (Vuvuzelas, stupid dancings, etc) that obviously neither liked the game nor understood it. Surely they got tickets for free to increase the black presence on SA rugby...well, it sucked.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I might just bring up my fears that Argentine rugby doesn't have such a greta future now, something I was laughed at for suggesting not much earlier. We shall see with the rest of this.

 

[Jaguares]

I might just bring up my fears that Argentine rugby doesn't have such a greta future now, something I was laughed at for suggesting not much earlier. We shall see with the rest of this.

I don't think so, Argentina has a good future in rugby. Last year reached the semifinals of 2012 IRB Junior World Championship beating teams like: France, Australia and Scotland, they played very well. They have good players projects like: Santiago Cordero, Matias Diaz, Pablo Matera, Facundo Isa, Tomas Lavanini and Patricio Fernandez.

The problem is that there is an age difference between the golden generation of third place in RWC 2007 and these new players. Albacete, Fernandez Lobbe, Roncero, Contepomi, Juan Martin Hernandez and others, all of them have 30 or more years. While these new talents are very young still:

Santiago Cordero: 19 years
Matias Diaz: 20 years
Pablo Matera: 20 years
Facundo Isa: 19 years
Tomas Lavanini: 20 years
Patricio Fernandez: 18 years

They are the future of Argentine rugby, for example:

Facundo Isa signs for Toulon:

http://rugbyworldcup-argentina2023.blogspot.com/2013/07/facundo-isa-set-to-debut-for-toulon.html

Tomas Lavanini could play Super Rugby for Chiefs:

http://rugbyworldcup-argentina2023.blogspot.com/2013/06/pumitas-secondrower-tomas-lavanini.html

But the difference in years with the leaders of the teams is great.

Felipe Contepomi: 35 years
Patricio Albacete: 31 years
Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe: 31 years
Juan Martin Hernandez: 31 years
Marcos Ayerza: 30 years

So there is a difference of 10 years between these great generations, in the middle, the Argentine players between 22-29 years simply they don't have the level of these two generations.

That's not the fault of Phelan, is a more complex problem, when Argentina lost their best players simply can't replace them because their good players are still very young.

Regards

 

[RWC2011Fan]

I wasn't for Phelan getting his contract renewed after RWC 2011 and I feel Argentina were too satisfied by that tournament and too happy despite throwing away wins in the RC last year. But I think this match should be listed anomaly with matches such as Wales' 96-13 loss in Pretoria in 1998, Australia's 49-0 loss in 2006 and Samoa's 74-14 loss to the Lions this year. The return match will give a far better indication of the Pumas and what judgements need to be made on.

Australia was actually the winner of that 49-0 match and it was played in Brisbane.

- No more black fake fans (Vuvuzelas, stupid dancings, etc) that obviously neither liked the game nor understood it. Surely they got tickets for free to increase the black presence on SA rugby...well, it sucked.

Nah, they were likely there for the football match that was played beforehand. It was part of the Nelson Mandela Sports and Cultural Day

 

[smartcooky]

Tomas Lavanini could play Super Rugby for Chiefs:

http://rugbyworldcup-argentina2023.blogspot.com/2013/06/pumitas-secondrower-tomas-lavanini.html

A few years ago, SANZAR made a provision to encourage all three partners to allow a few foreign players to play in Super Rugby franchises. That provision has never really been taken up by Argentinian players. I would like to see a concerted effort by the UAR to get as many Argentina test prospects playing in Super Rugby as they can. It would hugely benefit the Pumas if they had a reasonable part of the squad playing here.