[2013 TRC] South Africa vs. Argentina in Soweto (17/08/2013)

[TRF_Ezequiel]

One option is to use Le Roux on the wing, but who do we put at full-back then? Still, with all these injuries and players not available, Ludik is still overlooked. The guy at least deserves a chance to show what he can do. He can play full-back and wing.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

One option is to use Le Roux on the wing, but who do we put at full-back then? Still, with all these injuries and players not available, Ludik is still overlooked. The guy at least deserves a chance to show what he can do. He can play full-back and wing.

Very true but Ludik seems to be in the same car as Brussow and in HM's blind spot. He was certainly the player of the SR 2012 nevermind the full back of 2012. In the suqad there is Kirchner (please lets not get back on that horse again!) and Lambie. Frans Steyn has played there recently for us but was very lazy in that position although his boot alone was worth something. Taute should have been considered at 15 but played at 13 last year for the Bokke... so a lot of ifs and buts. JP couldn't have picked a ****tier time to go abroad. All in all I would personally like to stick with Le Roux at 15 and look to bring in someone on the wing simply because I think 15 is a more critical position and I'd like Le Roux to develop there with as many opportunities as HM can give him.

 

[TRF_heineken]

One option is to use Le Roux on the wing, but who do we put at full-back then? Still, with all these injuries and players not available, Ludik is still overlooked. The guy at least deserves a chance to show what he can do. He can play full-back and wing.

Well the only other options apart from Willie at Fullback is Lambie, Pienaar and Kirchner...

 

[Gavin]

I don't understand why HM continues to leave out Brussow. Also Kirchner should never be in the team for one reason: he is moving abroad. Let other, younger players, cement that position down.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I don't understand why HM continues to leave out Brussow. Also Kirchner should never be in the team for one reason: he is moving abroad. Let other, younger players, cement that position down.

So is Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Juandre Kruger, Chilliboy Ralepelle, and a couple of other guys... That is one of the MANY reasons why I wouldn't pick him, my main reason would be that he's crap.

If you maybe read a couple of articles, you would see why Brussouw isn't picked. And with these younger guys coming through, I can't see him picked soon...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

We are seeing Andries Bekker, JP Pietersen, Joe Pietersen, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Juandre Kruger, Zane Kirchner, Jano Vermaak, Chiliboy and that's just off the top of my head all move abroad and being players in Bok contention. That on top of CJ Stander, Jaque Fourie, Quinn Roux, Gerhard Mostert, Heinke van der Merwe, Jacobie Adriaanse, Eugene van Staden, Wian du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, Rory Kockott, Paul Bosch, Corne Uys, etc etc last year. We are seeing more SA players being capped abroad than the usual England situation. France alone have capped Bernard le Roux, Antonie Claassen and Daniel Kotze this year! Jake White has openly stated that he is actively recruiting junior players from SA. Ireland have their 'project players'.

I understand the likes of Bakkies, Gary Botha, Rossouw and Fourie du Preez moving on as they have achieved what they could in SA and are in that stage of their careers.

Is this only because of the weak Rand or in part because of the selections of overseas based players in Francois Louw and Ruan Pienaar (and now Du Preez and Steenkamp) who seem to have no inclination or incentive to come back and ply their trade in SA? SARU seriously need to reconsider the situation IMO. They have made noises about a capped number of overseas based players but really it shouldn't be more than 2 IMO and then it should only be in exceptional circumstances. We have crossed a line, a very important line.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Very true but Ludik seems to be in the same car as Brussow and in HM's blind spot. He was certainly the player of the SR 2012 nevermind the full back of 2012. In the suqad there is Kirchner (please lets not get back on that horse again!) and Lambie. Frans Steyn has played there recently for us but was very lazy in that position although his boot alone was worth something. Taute should have been considered at 15 but played at 13 last year for the Bokke... so a lot of ifs and buts. JP couldn't have picked a ****tier time to go abroad. All in all I would personally like to stick with Le Roux at 15 and look to bring in someone on the wing simply because I think 15 is a more critical position and I'd like Le Roux to develop there with as many opportunities as HM can give him.

F. Steyn is not the best for any of the position he can play. His injury is a blessing is disguise. With Ludik being ignored, we have to hope Taute will be ready to play soon. I would be happy with Taute and le Roux at FB. I still don't get how we just throw this whole philosophy overboard of preferring local players over overseas-based players.

I know, a lot of players are currently moving, but how will we ever convince players to stay in SA if we are going to pick them regardless of where they play? In the long run, calling up 10 overseas players now, will result in others moving because there's nothing holding them back. It could mean we see 15 new players every 2 years play for our franchises and provincial sides.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

F. Steyn is not the best for any of the position he can play. His injury is a blessing is disguise. With Ludik being ignored, we have to hope Taute will be ready to play soon. I would be happy with Taute and le Roux at FB. I still don't get how we just throw this whole philosophy overboard of preferring local players over overseas-based players.

I know, a lot of players are currently moving, but how will we ever convince players to stay in SA if we are going to pick them regardless of where they play? In the long run, calling up 10 overseas players now, will result in others moving because there's nothing holding them back. It could mean we see 15 new players every 2 years play for our franchises and provincial sides.

My sentiments exactly. I was all for these players (Louw and Pienaar) playing for SA but I was under the impression that the understanding was that they'd come back and play SR eventually. I was naïve and have changed my mind since.

 

[TRF_heineken]

We are seeing Andries Bekker, JP Pietersen, Joe Pietersen, Bryan Habana, Morne Steyn, Juandre Kruger, Zane Kirchner, Jano Vermaak, Chiliboy and that's just off the top of my head all move abroad and being players in Bok contention. That on top of CJ Stander, Jaque Fourie, Quinn Roux, Gerhard Mostert, Heinke van der Merwe, Jacobie Adriaanse, Eugene van Staden, Wian du Preez, Ruan Pienaar, Rory Kockott, Paul Bosch, Corne Uys, etc etc last year. We are seeing more SA players being capped abroad than the usual England situation. France alone have capped Bernard le Roux, Antonie Claassen and Daniel Kotze this year! Jake White has openly stated that he is actively recruiting junior players from SA. Ireland have their 'project players'.

I understand the likes of Bakkies, Gary Botha, Rossouw and Fourie du Preez moving on as they have achieved what they could in SA and are in that stage of their careers.

Is this only because of the weak Rand or in part because of the selections of overseas based players in Francois Louw and Ruan Pienaar (and now Du Preez and Steenkamp) who seem to have no inclination or incentive to come back and ply their trade in SA? SARU seriously need to reconsider the situation IMO. They have made noises about a capped number of overseas based players but really it shouldn't be more than 2 IMO and then it should only be in exceptional circumstances. We have crossed a line, a very important line.

I think we have to seperate Fourie Du Preez from the rest. He didn't go to Japan for the money, he had R80 million in his bank account while playing for the Bulls which he got from his Grandmother's will. He went to Japan to prolong his rugby career. The reason why he's back, and that he's a long term choice for HM is proof of that. Fourie went to Japan, as a sort of Sabbatical like Mccaw and Carter are doing. But because SARU and the franchises doesn't have those clauses in their contracts, Fourie took another route, he went to Japan.

Zeke, I honestly don't think Ludik is Springbok material. That's my opinion, while I know many won't agree with me. There's just something off-putting about him.

For me the Fullbacks should be Willie le Roux, Gio Aplon and maybe Lambie for now... And soon it should be Cheslin Kolbe.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Back to the game though I can't wait anymore. I have no idea what to expect of Argentina but I think, in SA, we should surely win out. What I would like to see from SA is picking up where ITO attacking intent and I would like to see whether our newfound focus on the break-down pays off and then how we go with the new scrum laws. I expect Argentina will be a good test at the break downs and scrums so that's good.

Hein: fair point about Fourie, I remember him saying he wanted a change in scenery culturally speaking and that he didn't want to take part in the long SR seasons. As a WP supporter can I just say a big "hell, no" to both Aplon and Kolbe at fullback! They have been found out in the big games at 15. They look good when you are already winning but I'd like someone a bit more.. solid at the back.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Back to the game though I can't wait anymore. I have no idea what to expect of Argentina but I think, in SA, we should surely win out. What I would like to see from SA is picking up where ITO attacking intent and I would like to see whether our newfound focus on the break-down pays off and then how we go with the new scrum laws. I expect Argentina will be a good test at the break downs and scrums so that's good.

Hein: fair point about Fourie, I remember him saying he wanted a change in scenery culturally speaking and that he didn't want to take part in the long SR seasons. As a WP supporter can I just say a big "hell, no" to both Aplon and Kolbe at fullback! They have been found out in the big games at 15. They look good when you are already winning but I'd like someone a bit more.. solid at the back.

I think pedestrian Gerhard van den Heever is more to blame than them.

but I hear what you are saying. Could Kolbe possibly be used as a back-up scrumhalf?? He has been used there a lot by both WP and the Babyboks... he certainly has the build and the step to be a scrumhalf.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think pedestrian Gerhard van den Heever is more to blame than them.

but I hear what you are saying. Could Kolbe possibly be used as a back-up scrumhalf?? He has been used there a lot by both WP and the Babyboks... he certainly has the build and the step to be a scrumhalf.

Depends on game plan but yeah, he has been used there to good effect. Certainly in a loose game he could be very destructive from the base with his step and particularly acceleration.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Hein,

I know you don't rate Ludik the same way some of us do. No harm in that. I am just happy you're not on the Sideshow Bob-bandwagon. We have some thrilling young prospects coming through the ranks to stake their claim for the no. 15 jersey. It's just a matter of time before we get a new load of full-backs in SA. Ludik is off to France, Viljoen off the Japan (not sure when he'll be back), which means Jaco van Tonder gets a fair shot next year. As for the other franchises, do the Bulls have a solid FB in Visser? Or do they have someone else eyeing that spot? Kolbe has to prove what he can do but I think he's better at 13 or on the wing.

The Lions have Andries Coetzee, who is also a talented guy. It's only the Cheetahs who struggle with oom Hennie

 

[Gavin]

Puma team: 15 Juan Martin Hernandez, 14 Gonzalo Camacho, 13 Marcelo Bosch, 12 Felipe Contepomi (captain), 11 Juan Imhoff, 10 Nicolas Sanchez, 9 Martin Landajo, 8 Leonardo Senatore, 7 Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 6 Pablo Matera, 5 Patricio Albacete, 4 Manuel Carizza, 3 Matias Diaz, 2 Eusebio Guinazu, 1 Juan Figallo.
Replacements: 16 Agustin Creevy, 17 Nahuel Lobo, 18 Juan Pablo Orlandi, 19 Mariano Galarza, 20 Julio Farias Cabello, 21 Tomas Cubelli, 22 Santiago Fernandez, 23 Horacio Agulla.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8869092,00.html

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hein,

I know you don't rate Ludik the same way some of us do. No harm in that. I am just happy you're not on the Sideshow Bob-bandwagon. We have some thrilling young prospects coming through the ranks to stake their claim for the no. 15 jersey. It's just a matter of time before we get a new load of full-backs in SA. Ludik is off to France, Viljoen off the Japan (not sure when he'll be back), which means Jaco van Tonder gets a fair shot next year. As for the other franchises, do the Bulls have a solid FB in Visser? Or do they have someone else eyeing that spot? Kolbe has to prove what he can do but I think he's better at 13 or on the wing.

The Lions have Andries Coetzee, who is also a talented guy. It's only the Cheetahs who struggle with oom Hennie

Jurgen Visser certainly has the Heart. But he reminds me a lot of Casper Steyn. Lanky Fullback, decent at Club level, but not Springbok material.

I think Frans Steyn will still be of value to us at fullback. if he loses some weight, and get back some confidence, he can still be a very powerful prospect for the boks. and his big boot will certainly aid us as well.

But with that said, With so many good looking flyhalves coming through, Lambie should think about sacrificing the flyhalf spot for fullback, on the long haul. For now he should be at fly half. But if Goosen, Pollard and whoever else comes through, Lambie will still be of value to the Boks at fullback.

Back to the game... Bok-team will be announced today at 12:00 as usual.

 

[Big Ewis]

man, Contepomi still playing lol...and captain in fact.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

South Africa
15. Willie le Roux, 14 Bjorn Basson, 13 JJ Engelbrecht, 12 Jean de Villiers (captain), 11 Bryan Habana, 10 Morné Steyn, 9 Ruan Pienaar, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Willem Alberts, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Juandré Kruger, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Jannie du Plessis, 2 Adriaan Strauss, 1 Tendai Mtawarira
Substitutes 16 Bismarck du Plessis, 17 Gurthrö Steenkamp, 18 Coenie Oosthuizen, 19 Flip van der Merwe, 20 Siya Kolisi, 21 Fourie du Preez, 22 Pat Lambie, 23 Jan Serfontein

Argentina
15. Juan Martin Hernandez, 14. Gonzalo Camacho, 13. Marcelo Bosch, 12. Felipe Contepomi (captain), 11. Juan Imhoff, 10. Nicolas Sanchez, 9. Martin Landajo, 8. Leonardo Senatore, 7. Juan Manuel Leguizamon, 6. Pablo Matera, 5. Patricio Albacete, 4. Manuel Carizza, 3. Matias Diaz, 2. Eusebio Guinazu, 1. Juan Figallo
Substitutes: 16. Agustin Creevy, 17. Nahuel Lobo, 18. Juan Pablo Orlandi, 19. Mariano Galarza, 20. Julio Farias Cabello, 21. Tomas Cubelli, 22. Santiago Fernandez, 23. Horacio Agulla

 

[big ginger 8]

That is a very strong bench for S.A.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Happy to see Willie Le Roux starting. Kirchner (and Marcell Coetzee) don't even deserve to be in the squad based on form. I'd rather select Marnus Schoeman (got injured against the Natal Sharks last week) and Andries Coetzee or Louis Ludik to cover full-back.

Happy with the bench. Strongest bench we've had in quite some time.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Pretty decent 23 injuries and all considered.

What we are missing ATM; a world class 8, 9 and another wing other than Basson. FdP is certainly a world class 9 and JP Pietersen is there but there are availability issues there. When Goosen, Vermaak, Arno Botha and a few other injured players (Du Toit for one) are right we'd have very solid depth.