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[2013 EOYT] England

If Lancaster starts with Farrell, Tomkins and Goode he has lost any remaining sliver of faith I had in him. I suspect he will too.
Farrell wouldn't be the end of the world, and I'm neither here nor there with Tomkins (between him and Trinder for me, I prefer Trinders attacking style, but his defence can be a bit suspect at times - JJ on poor form, wouldn't have him in the XV, potentially a decent option at 23 though), Goode simply cannot be anywhere near the squad.
I really hope that Lancaster can look past Saracens good start to the season, and realise that this is England and not Saracens, and judge the players on their merits (or lack there-of) rather than the success of their club.
 
Johnsons in good form and is a better bet than the likes of Clarke and Haskill, watched him a few times for Exeter and he is a very aggressive carrier with a good engine and has been central to Exeters very good progress over the last few years and people who bulk at his selection should probably learn a bit more about backrow play.
 
Wood is definitely one of the top 6's in the premiership. He has never looked out of place in an England shirt and does everything you need a blind side flanker to do.
 
Haskell and Clarke aren't good enough either.

People who are happy to have players of Johnson's quality in the EPS are clearly happy with England being a mediocre international side.

This is the international game - not the Premiership or the HC pool stages.
 
Watch out for Dave Ewers of Exeter. If he carries on in the way he's currently playing, we'll have three No 8s to call on. The Chiefs are on fire at the moment.
 
Haskell and Clarke aren't good enough either.

People who are happy to have players of Johnson's quality in the EPS are clearly happy with England being a mediocre international side.

This is the international game - not the Premiership or the HC pool stages.

This. Johnson has had opportunities and has not been able to display the necessary levels of talent. Persisting with him is frankly incredible.
 
Is it persisting? He's been brought in as injury cover for the autumn series. It would take at least two injuries (in reality three if we include Croft) for Johnson to play; by then it'd likely be the final test against the All Blacks. Would anyone like to take a huge gamble with Fraser or Wallace at that point? "Might as well" would conflict with the idea of making England a good side; I'd say flippancy is worse than mediocrity in selection.

I think the greater problem that his selection highlights is the lack of games for the Saxons. The likes of Fraser and Wallace need investigating, but the Autumn Tests are no place to do it. Nor is the Six Nations. With the depth now available, two 'A' games in the Six Nations and a couple of mid-week games in the summer aren't enough to properly assess the young and/or fringe talent. A full 'A' Six Nations and the return of the Churchill Cup would be far more beneficial to England's development than offering a few token places in the EPS.
 
That's the point though, realistically he is not going to have a part in any of the matches... so why not involve someone who will benefit from time spent in the setup, in the future.

I also think Fraser could well have been called up had he been fit. Wallace is quite a long way away.

I would love to see the Churchill cup restored.
 
In the event of an injury either Fraser and Wallace could be called up and gain the experience. The safer bet should be in the camp from the start. I more meant that it's not persisting with him, because he's only an injury replacement. Persisting suggests that he's there by undeserved merit and he's likely to be played.

I think the fact he's a blindside is Johnson's main (some may say only) strength. As long as Robshaw stays at openside, Kvesic needs someone alongside him in training.
 
I would rather pick an unknown than a proven "Not really good enough". We could have promoted Sam Jones - better long term, possibly better now, very probably not a significant downgrade.

Beside, given that Lancaster has been committing to calling in a hooker at the last moment if things go wrong for about a year, he clearly doesn't think a player needs to be in the squad from the start to make a contribution.
 
Beside, given that Lancaster has been committing to calling in a hooker at the last moment if things go wrong for about a year, he clearly doesn't think a player needs to be in the squad from the start to make a contribution.

I won't defend him for that -nor am I defending his particular reasons for selecting Johnson- though isn't he able to name a new squad, with a set number of changes, by the Six Nations? I thought that was how Twelvetrees got in.
 
I think the greater problem that his selection highlights is the lack of games for the Saxons. The likes of Fraser and Wallace need investigating, but the Autumn Tests are no place to do it. Nor is the Six Nations. With the depth now available, two 'A' games in the Six Nations and a couple of mid-week games in the summer aren't enough to properly assess the young and/or fringe talent. A full 'A' Six Nations and the return of the Churchill Cup would be far more beneficial to England's development than offering a few token places in the EPS.
See, I don't get this. Fraser had a very impressive year in the Premiership and HC last year for the Saracens. For me, that shows a lot more about his talent and has earned him international recognition, over a Saxons international initiation. What do you expect to learn from him playing the likes of Canada, that you didn't when he played against the likes of the Tigers?

It's the same with May vs. Yarde. Yarde's in excellent form and certainly warrants a call-up now, but when May put in repeated great performances for Gloucester throughout last season (and continues to do so), and people overturned that on the basis of his and Yarde's respective performances against Argentina B, it kind of beggars belief.

We have two years left until the WC comes around. Every tour spent thinking "do we, don't we" on players like Fraser, is another tour wasted on challenging our potential top players. We've worked out most of our pack, but we need to sort out our depth for in case of injuries. Johnson may get better, but Fraser has a lot more scope for improvement, and needs to be tried before it gets too late and we chalk him off as "too inexperienced and it's too close to the WC now".

When a young player shows form, other teams are often willing to throw him in and challenge him. We set the standards for new players so ludicrously high, that we end up pushing away exactly the players we need to be nurturing. Consider how many hoops Burns has had to jump through to finally get a game for England. Or how Sharples was given a chance and discarded after a half of rugby playing in a weak team. (And it was noticeable how much his form suffered afterwards.) Or how much Wade has had to prove to selectors that his defence is satisfactory. Or how Morgan spent the better part of a year being routinely swapped out, regardless of how well he played. I think we should do away with the Saxons. It's a silly initiation - players should be picked for their club forms.
 
What do you expect to learn from him playing the likes of Canada, that you didn't when he played against the likes of the Tigers?

Mainly that the international coaches get a much better look at the players. Watching them from the sidelines won't be the same as watching them in a training camp for two, three weeks. Also, for players at clubs like Wasps, it'll give them access to better S&C teams and facilities; hopefully levelling the field with players at bigger clubs like Saracens (Billy Vunipola springs to mind) for the eyes of selectors. They'll play with more talented players as well.

I think we should do away with the Saxons. It's a silly initiation - players should be picked for their club forms.

It's a useful pool for depth that gives clubs notice of players' liability to be called up. As it stands it's not doing much else, but if the Saxons had more games and time together it'd be far more useful for both players and coaches. As England (hopefully) continue to improve and develop depth, they'll need the Saxons to manage that increased player base.

Not only that, it could be used as a sort of holding cell for u20s players who are almost there, like Nowell and Ford, keeping them in the international establishment and providing continuity from age-grade so they can be blooded earlier.

All of this helps remove the doubt over players like Fraser and May and gives them more and better chances to impress; like Tom Youngs and Yarde did last and this summer. Getting rid of the Saxons would just increase the doubt and force 40+ touring squads to investigate the same number of players.

EDIT: It's been mentioned a few times how Lancaster told certain players, May included, that they had specifics he wanted them to improve. If they had, say, six games and eight weeks a year in a Saxons set-up they could really focus their efforts on those short-comings, with direct influence and contribution from the coaches. Further reducing the doubt in Lancaster's eyes.
 
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I'd like to see the following XV start v Australia; subject to injury:

1. Corbisiero - hopefully he recovers from his knee injury.
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5 Parling (captain)
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

9. Youngs
10. Farrell

12. Twelvetrees
13. Trinder - because of the Gloucester connection with Twelvetrees

11. Yarde
14. Wade
15. Foden
 
Just been looking at the Burgess brothers...

How ridiculous would it be to have the twins playing union?
Both 6'5" and 120kg.

6. Tom
7. Sam
8. George

That would be an absurdly physical back row.

Why couldn't they have just paid the oiks?

I'd imagine quite a lot of you will agree with this to an extent:

http://www.espn.co.uk/blogs/rugby/story/202729.html
 
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I love the Burgess brothers! Absolute units!

***le on that article is cracking, as well.
 
Haha, I used to be a Bulls fan when Sam was the most impressive of the brothers, and even he wasn't on the international scene yet.

Would love for them to convert.
 
The Saxons are important because it gives the England set-up a chance to see how players fit into England's training and England's gameplan. Playing for your club in the AP and going away and playing for England vs a range of opponents are two different things. I also think its a good thing we're making players jump through more hoops to get England caps these days if it results in players emerging with better skillsets and less need to be taught their job by England.

I disagree with an emphasis on club form. It is misleading. Nobody is seriously campaigning for Myler to wear the 10 shirt this autumn are they? I have no problem with Lancaster basing a large amount of selection on "Who has performed inside my game plan". And I think electing to look at players in the Saxons first where possible is sensible. That said, it shouldn't stop Lancaster from simply promoting great prospects straight away when he sees someone who is genuinely ready for international rugby right away. But those people are rare - most people come into the England radar with flaws.
 
He retired from playing for England, I think after the 2011 RWC. But he was, of course, selected to play for the Lions in the summer. He couldn't turn that one down.
 

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