[2013 EOYT] England

[LooseHeadProp87]

Lots of positives from yesterdays game for england Lawes , Launchbury , Care , farrell , vunipola bros , also thought tom youngs came on and gave england something different. But my god Marler and Dan Cole were terrible in the scrum and in the loose

 

[St George]

Lots of positives from yesterdays game for england Lawes , Launchbury , Care , farrell , vunipola bros , also thought tom youngs came on and gave england something different. But my god Marler and Dan Cole were terrible in the scrum and in the loose

I dont think Marler or Cole were that bad and some credit must go to the French FR who are a pretty competant bunnch. Mako had a poor scrum as per the Lions aneeds to improve. Youngs is there to do the set piece first and formost and if he cant throw a decent lineout ball then he is a liability. A Hooker must be able to Hook, Srummage and throw accurately....and its a bonus if he can run....not the other way round. A Wicketkeeper who scores tons is no good if he cant catch or stump.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

Cole was terrible in the scrum and useless in the loose he looked worn out and done after 30 mins ( a lot of that due to being overplayed ) i just think the new engagement he is really struggling

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cole was terrible in the scrum and useless in the loose he looked worn out and done after 30 mins

You've really got an axe to grind with Cole haven't you?
I actually remember being impressed with how fresh he looked late in the second half, still offering himself as a runner and hitting rucks etc.

 

[Peat]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...llionayear-if-he/story-fni0cx12-1226815622240

I reckon it won't happen, but if it did...

It would probably be a failure. I understand he's a big talent. But the idea that a player can come off the back of a Rugby League season, go straight to Union - which I believe is what the logistics entail here - and learn everything needed in that season is a pretty tenuous one. The switch has rarely worked out that quickly in this country. If he, or Sam Tomkins, or any Leaguie wants to play for England at the World Cup they are probably too late. For me at least. I can just imagine Bomber and Farrell promoting such a guy quickly. I don't think that's a good thing.

The idea of more of our top Leaguies converting is one I love but there needs to be a bit more respect for taking time to learn the game properly there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I did post this yesterday in the rumours thread, but hey-ho...

The "$2million a season" supposedly offered by the RFU sounds dodgy too... that's roughly £1million and I can't see any teams affording that and equally I can't see him being the first ever central contract.

 

[j'nuh]

It would probably be a failure. I understand he's a big talent. But the idea that a player can come off the back of a Rugby League season, go straight to Union - which I believe is what the logistics entail here - and learn everything needed in that season is a pretty tenuous one. The switch has rarely worked out that quickly in this country. If he, or Sam Tomkins, or any Leaguie wants to play for England at the World Cup they are probably too late. For me at least. I can just imagine Bomber and Farrell promoting such a guy quickly. I don't think that's a good thing.

The idea of more of our top Leaguies converting is one I love but there needs to be a bit more respect for taking time to learn the game properly there.

I agree entirely.

tbh, even if he was the best player in his position after converting, I'd rather take the quality hit than take on someone who thinks they can switch between responsibilities as it suits them. The rest of the team had been competing for four years to get to where they are in the England standings, why shouldn't he put in a little more work for it? The whole dual national talk is rubbish too - I don't want him swanning between union and league.

 

[LooseHeadProp87]

You've really got an axe to grind with Cole haven't you?
I actually remember being impressed with how fresh he looked late in the second half, still offering himself as a runner and hitting rucks etc.

I have never been impressed with him but his form of late for Leicester and england is not up to scratch a lot of that may be due to him being over played

 

[McTallshort]

Remember Andy FArrell being shoe horned into the England team in 2007 with no idea were to play him and it was a complete failure. If he wanted to play in the WC he should have switched codes last season at the latest.

 

[Peat]

I did post this yesterday in the rumours thread, but hey-ho...

The "$2million a season" supposedly offered by the RFU sounds dodgy too... that's roughly £1million and I can't see any teams affording that and equally I can't see him being the first ever central contract.

What's the England match fee? Adding that to a top whack AP contract might get you close to it, particularly if you added all maximum possible win bonuses to make it sound impressive. That said... £400k is about as good as a AP player can dream of getting. I don't think there's £600k a year possible in playing for England...

I agree entirely.

tbh, even if he was the best player in his position after converting, I'd rather take the quality hit than take on someone who thinks they can switch between responsibilities as it suits them. The rest of the team had been competing for four years to get to where they are in the England standings, why shouldn't he put in a little more work for it? The whole dual national talk is rubbish too - I don't want him swanning between union and league.

I don't like guys flitting, but if he was the best suited we're clearly not going to do anything else. My worry would be us playing him when he was not the best.

 

[ratsapprentice]

£15k a game - including match fee, image rights and training fee.
The RWC winning bonus amounts to about £150k each for a 35-man squad.
The best paid players in the prem get around £200k a season AFAIK.
So if he played in 10 England games a year with a good club contract he could probably get near what he can in the NRL.
His commercial opportunities are significantly bigger in Union though - particularly with the home RWC.

It should be noted that Sam is rated as one of the best players in the NRL (and by extension - the world).
At least as good and probably better than Sam Tomkins who gets paid £400k a season - far more than even the best England based Union players.

It is highly likely that he (/his agent) is negotiating a better contract.
Although the Rabbitohs are apparently lining up Fifita as a potential replacement - again this could be contract maneuvering.

And just in case people are unaware of him - yes he could be an extremely good player.
I have no doubts about his ability and he is a fantastic person by all accounts.
The only issue with him playing in the RWC is the time-scale.

It can be done quickly if you have the talent - you only need to look as far as Folau to see that.
But Sam would more than likely be a centre or a blindside - which would take a little longer to transition.
He could potentially even be a lock - like Brad Thorn - although that would take even longer again.

As an inside centre though you have to remember how ****ing huge this guy is...

Jamie Roberts is 6'4" and 110kg

Sam Burgess is 6'5" and 116kg

We should definitely be targeting the twins though (both 120kg monsters themselves) - they are only 21 so could definitely play in the next RWC too, as could Sam TBH.

 

[nickdnz]

To be honest I don't think Burgess has the speed or vision required for the backs - while at 25 years I'm not sure he would ever get rucks and set pieces to a world class level. He's a good league player because he tackles hard and runs hard - but so do many England forwards who are also able to do the other stuff. I'd find it interesting to know what Sam Burgess could provide that Billy Vunipola or Ben Morgan aren't already reasonably exceptional in as an 8th man. Of course I could be wrong and he could be like Brad Thorn...but he could also be like Willie Mason, or to be fair, Andy Farrell.

I'm not convinced he'd be offered that much anyway - 2million is over double the next highest paid player in the premiership.

 

[ratsapprentice]

To be fair Thorn switched at 25 too.

I could definitely see him being a very good IC, Blindside or LH Lock.
Clearly ball carrying and tackling are his strengths, but they are very, very strong.
As a 6 he would be massive and rapid.

It is true that it's very hard to predict how conversions go - but I'd back him to be significantly better than Andy Farrell was.
If he was seen as a back rower then I could see the necessary fundamentals being learnt very quickly at a club like Saracens who have a very good forwards coach.
I'd imagine if he did come back and switched then he's more than likely want to move to London because the Yorks clubs aren't good enough.
That would basically limit him to Quins and Sarries and at long odds Wasps.
He would almost certainly be a marquee player and therefore the club could pay him whatever they like.

All this is academic for the moment though... the rumours are very thin at this point.