[2013 EOYT] England

[g6mcg]

Eh? In his last 25 internationals for Wales since 2010, barring injury, Adam Jones has played at least 70 in all of them but 2.

Is/was that due to a lack of a decent alternative though?

 

[psychic duck]

Maybe he shouldn't have, he always looks f**ked after halftime.
Maybe I'm imagining him being hauled off early a lot, but I've definitely seen it on a number of occasions.

You are probably remembering his early international days when Steve Hansen took him off at 30 in 2003/04 or some matches just after coming back from injury or the Lions where there was a good tighthead in Cole to come on. He's probably played more minutes per match than Cole over the past few years as the tighthead alternatives in Wales have been largely awful, whilst Cole came off often as there was an international standard tighthead in Castro to rotate with.

Cole has played more minutes overall though as he must be one of the least injury prone players I remember. Since his England debut in 2010, he has played in 43 of a possible 44 caps, which is quite incredible. The only match he missed was a RWC warm up match in 2011 where he was rested not injured. The good luck with Cole is cancelled out with ill luck of Corbisiero's injury record though.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah, I imagine the tighthead depth for wales gets jones more gametime per match than his fitness does.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Armitage is completely ignoring the main reason the England based player rules are there...

To retain top talent in our domestic competition all the others that he lists are incidental.

 

[psychic duck]

well there was also the lions tour though. I'd imagine if you looked just at his last 10 games(lions/wales) it wouldn't look so great

Actually you have to delve back to the RWC game with Fiji in September 2011 to find the last time Adam Jones was subbed off before at least 70 minutes. A game where he was taken off at 58 with the score 38-0. Apart from the injuries against France in 2011 and South Africa 2013, that was the only time since the start of the World Cup. So once for Wales in the last 19 caps in a game that was long decided. It's a pity that people have to resort to imagining stuff based on a reputation that has stuck from a decade ago.

 

[Peat]

Henry Thomas has been a long term project of Lancaster's and Rowntree's, they've clearly marked him out from the beginning and this is the culmination. I believe in his potential, but I'm not sure I believe in his ability - however, I am bolstered by the knowledge that this is the latest in a long line of gambles on young props taken by Rowntree and by and large it's worked out ok, although maybe not always automatically.

I am slightly worried however by the amounts of injuries he's already shipped and the amount of gametime accrued in the hardest physical position at a very young age. Throw in the fact that he's got about half a stone to put on at least and long term, you've honestly got to wonder how many games he'll make in the future.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dave flatman wrote an article about thomas a few months ago and said basically the same thing.
Said, long term, he'd probably benefit more from getting 20-30 a week and the odd start, rather than being first choice at his age.

 

[Maverick1987]

Get on with it, Stuart.

Agree Crapsray, hadn't actually though of that

Those fly-half stats yesterday suggest the need for a running fly-half and a kicking full-back : 10. Ford 15. Daly - any takers? Or Daly could be a winger, with Brown at full-back and Watson the other wing.

I wouldn't swap brown for anybody at FB

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Same. Daly would get in there at 13, for me - or on the bench in the 23 shirt - I wouldn't put him on the wing while Watson, May and Nowell are fit. Would probably put Eastmond on the wing before him, too.

 

[j'nuh]

j'nuh - Completely disagree; Leicester play some of the best rugby in the Premiership at times and look at Care at Quins - he hasn't progressed as desired either.

Twelvetrees and Ford were playing in the Tigers second team. One year away from the Tigers and they are in the full EPS. Twelvetrees even surpassed Allen to do this.
I rate Allen, but should his international career have stalled as much as it has? He's improved at Tigers, but as much as we'd have expected?
Tuilagi burst on the scene from the Tigers academy, people calling him the next Nonu. Has he really improved that much since 2011?
Youngs burst on the scene from the Tigers academy, was rivalling Genia and du Preez he was that good in 2010/11. He's gone backwards at notches.
Forsyth. Played for England at every junior age level. Apparently now making steps forwards at Sale.
Harrison. Again played for England at every junior age level. 23 and not on anyone's radar.
Flood. Worse than his 2011 variant.

Tigers have had a dominant forwards platform for the last few years (excluding this), and yet which backs have improved at the Tigers in spite of this? Goneva? Thompstone? Would they have improved any less had they been elsewhere?

 

[McTallshort]

Tait and Flood have improved since being at tigers to say Flood is the same as he was in 2011 (thought he was good then to be honest shows how often you have watched them.

Manu no better than he was 3 years ago? are you serious?

 

[Peat]

Lets split these up...

Harrison and Forsyth are victims of a very conservative mentality at Leicester that seems to split young players into chosen ones and not-chosen ones. Unless you are one of the chosen ones, getting gametime at Leicester is like pulling teeth out of your butt. See also Twelvetrees really, everyone was completely bewildered as to why he wasn't getting a better chance at Leicester. It is very difficult to improve past a certain level without consistent gametime. These are not good examples of Leicester's ability to develop a back as they didn't really try.

Anthony Allen should have more caps and would have more if he was 4 inches taller and a stone and a half heavier. He isn't, that's not Leicester's fault.

Tuilagi looks a better ball handler and distributor for Leicester than he did in 2011 and he is far less prone to defensive cock-ups.

Flood for Leicester is not worse than his 2011 variant. That he hasn't hit that form for England is not, imo, the fault fo the Leicester coaches.

George Ford was 19 and getting plenty of gametime. He was better at 18 than he was 19 and now he's better again at 20. Young player is inconsistent - not a massive surprise.

Then Youngs. Yes he's gone backwards. Is that Leicester's fault? Or England's? Or Youngs' himself?

Tait has improved out of sight as a full-back. Niall Morris has kicked on. And, of course, they turned Youngs and Tuilagi into England internationals really quickly.

Sorry, but I think you're looking at reasons to have a cut at them. Why trust Quins, when Danny Care has not gone anywhere and JTH has gone backwards? What have Saints done with Waldouck/Clarke? Or Geraghty and Lamb? Etc.etc.

 

[stus768]

What's happened to Waldock at saints?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Generally a shadow of his former self.
It's understandable, really, considering he spends far more time injured than fit.

 

[Maverick1987]

Same. Daly would get in there at 13, for me - or on the bench in the 23 shirt - I wouldn't put him on the wing while Watson, May and Nowell are fit. Would probably put Eastmond on the wing before him, too.

I really don't mind that daly isn't in it . I think he's a victim in the same manner as James hook of not having a set position . Is he a better 13 than tuilagi or Joseph . I don't think so . A better winger than Watson yarde wade Nowell . I don't think so and he's not as good IMO as brown or foden . That's why he's not in I believe although that should make him a good 23

 

[Aedaphon]

I really don't mind that daly isn't in it . I think he's a victim in the same manner as James hook of not having a set position . Is he a better 13 than tuilagi or Joseph . I don't think so . A better winger than Watson yarde wade Nowell . I don't think so and he's not as good IMO as brown or foden . That's why he's not in I believe although that should make him a good 23

And we need a competent 23-man squad coming up into 2015- so frankly, that's perfect. And have you seen the boot on him?

 

[Patchey]

I get rugby on when Daly kicks a 60m penalty the same way Olly gets one when Dave Seymore makes a turn over. Beautiful stuff.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What's happened to Waldock at saints?

Well we played him at 12 when he first came here in the same way that Downey used to play and it didn't work. He then got injured over and over again.

He gets a bit of game time for the wandies but that's still mostly at 12 when he has really always been a 13.

It's a shame really but he would always struggle to get some form with that amount of injuries.

As for Clarke we need to develop his anger management before anything else gets improved. He is a really good club player, don't know about international standard really

 

[j'nuh]

Harrison and Forsyth are victims of a very conservative mentality at Leicester that seems to split young players into chosen ones and not-chosen ones. Unless you are one of the chosen ones, getting gametime at Leicester is like pulling teeth out of your butt. See also Twelvetrees really, everyone was completely bewildered as to why he wasn't getting a better chance at Leicester. It is very difficult to improve past a certain level without consistent gametime. These are not good examples of Leicester's ability to develop a back as they didn't really try.

I think not trying to develop a back still counts as failing to develop a back.

Anthony Allen should have more caps and would have more if he was 4 inches taller and a stone and a half heavier. He isn't, that's not Leicester's fault.

Fair point. One of the bigger victims under MJ's reign, and I'm still not sure why Lancaster opted for Barritt over Allen at the start of his reign. Still, Allen came to the Tigers as a talented player. Tigers just made his game a little better rounded.

Tuilagi looks a better ball handler and distributor for Leicester than he did in 2011 and he is far less prone to defensive cock-ups.

Still, I was expecting a lot more by now to be honest. Also, I think that he was more effective in his attacking game two years ago.

Flood for Leicester is not worse than his 2011 variant. That he hasn't hit that form for England is not, imo, the fault fo the Leicester coaches.

Flood was on fire in 2010-11 and had a claim to being the second/third best flyhalf in the world at the time. His linkplay with Ashton was fantastic. Had few problems. It might have been a short-lived purple patch, but I wouldn't be thinking that he's got a claim for second/third best flyhalf in the world now.

George Ford was 19 and getting plenty of gametime. He was better at 18 than he was 19 and now he's better again at 20. Young player is inconsistent - not a massive surprise.

He's better in nearly every single facet of his play since leaving the Tigers. Did you see the chart that lists all the England fly-halves and what they've done this season (can't remember which thread... this one? Or was it on Shedweb that I saw it?)? He would not have posted those kind of stats at any point with the Tigers. Refuse to believe that that's just inconsistency, such a big improvement.

Then Youngs. Yes he's gone backwards. Is that Leicester's fault? Or England's? Or Youngs' himself?

I think Tigers, and maybe a bit of England. He burst on the scene as a very sharp play-what-is-on kind of scrum-half. I think you were the one to have compiled all his 2010-11 vs. 2013 stats? And we saw that he now box kicks more, runs less. The frequency with which a team box kicks is a coaching/tactical decision, not one Youngs makes on the spot. I think the Tigers academy is a wonderful thing, and a lot of good players come out of it. I just don't trust the development of players beyond academy.

Tait has improved out of sight as a full-back. Niall Morris has kicked on. And, of course, they turned Youngs and Tuilagi into England internationals really quickly.

I personally think that Youngs and Tuilagi getting so good so quick was down to their academy. The Tigers academy produces some incredible players that do actually play what's on. The Tigers management isn't going to ruin that work overnight.

See Ashton. Playing league to a high level really developed his support play. No team he's played in has been able to offer an environment which closely matches the skills he'd pick up in league, so I think rustiness from league has eroded that skill over time. I would have hoped that he'd have developed better at union-specific skills to make up for it, but apparently not.

Tait's always looked good in the patches that he's played. He was an international before the Tigers. Injury hasn't been kind on him. Tigers haven't really improved him as such.

Sorry, but I think you're looking at reasons to have a cut at them. Why trust Quins, when Danny Care has not gone anywhere and JTH has gone backwards? What have Saints done with Waldouck/Clarke? Or Geraghty and Lamb? Etc.etc.

The point is that I can actually think of players who have improved over time at these teams, eg Hopper, Monye, Brown.

Point is that Tigers have played a style of rugby suited more to the pack than the backs. This kind of rugby produces countless talented forwards, which I don't even need to list because Tigers are so well-known for producing forwards, but the backs can sometimes be a little peripheral-y at times, and I don't think they have to engage their attacking skillset as much as teams like the Quins do.

 

[Maverick1987]

Originally posted by J'Nuh

The point is that I can actually think of players who have improved over time at these teams, eg Hopper, Monye, Brown.

Point is that Tigers have played a style of rugby suited more to the pack than the backs. This kind of rugby produces countless talented forwards, which I don't even need to list because Tigers are so well-known for producing forwards, but the backs can sometimes be a little peripheral-y at times, and I don't think they have to engage their attacking skillset as much as teams like the Quins do.[/QUOTE]

I'm not so sure about this .

Like an above post said quins buggered JTH up pretty royally despite playing a game that suits Jordan nicely so it sometimes just doesn't work out

I think youngs is just royally out of form . At the minute he's looking second choice for tigers I'd rather mele play atm

Tuilagi destroyed NZ a little over a year ago and was part of a team that won the premiership before getting injured on a lions tour that I think is pretty pointless .
It's hardly that he's gone backwards