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[2013 EOYT] England

Rats, you got a link for that?

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s98.htm?100,14378511

I agree about Sinckler; I trust he'll turn out great for them in a year or two.
But because they haven't brought in a premium TH he is now under pressure to perform, instead of being able to develop at his own pace.

I think the centres and tight 5 are equally big issues.They have a lot of players who are efficient and can keep a game flowing.
What they seem to lack is players who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and create some momentum - whether by pace or power.
 
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Rats, you got a link for that?

My best guess for the Quins logic is that they're gambling on bringing Collier and Sinckler through as their next generation of TH props - Sinckler in particular can be that brute of a TH you say they need - and didn't want to spend too much. I never thought it sounded particularly intelligent, but there we go. That said, can't blame him for a loss when he isn't there!

I think the centre issue might be even bigger tbh, and its possible that the lack of threat from there is one of the things dragging Nick Evans down. From O'Shea's comments, defence was a big issue, they need a defensive general as much as an attacking threat - that gets expensive. I'm guessing Lowe is their regular general, but he's not been in the best form.

Quins need some major surgery and they've made some interesting choices that will make it difficult. Committing to Evans and Easter until they fall apart just doesn't sound smart.

Robshaw is one of the few players I've seen emerge from that game with credit. His skillset might have been idiosyncratic to the point where it is difficult to fit into a balanced backrow, but that's ok, because you should be building it around him.

The thing that has confused me about our (Quins) back row is exactly this. There was a lot of talk in the off season of moving him to 6 and therefore allowing Wallace to play more. That hasn't happened and I have no idea why. Put Robshaw somewhere he is arguably better suited to play and take advantage of the new talent you have. The lack of Jack Clifford has also puzzled me.

It is always some responsibility. Lancaster names his squad on Wednesday, which will basically be his 33-man Elite Player Squad named in August, with replacements for three injured players, Brad Barritt, Manu Tuilagi and Tom Croft.

Luther Burrell and Joel Tomkins are likely to be the promoted centres, with Will Fraser possibly the back-row replacement.

Thoughts?
 
The thing that has confused me about our (Quins) back row is exactly this. There was a lot of talk in the off season of moving him to 6 and therefore allowing Wallace to play more. That hasn't happened and I have no idea why. Put Robshaw somewhere he is arguably better suited to play and take advantage of the new talent you have. The lack of Jack Clifford has also puzzled me.

My cynical side says stubbornness.
My logical side is confused.

Thoughts?

Probably about right.
I'm not convinced by Burrell. First off - he's a twelve, is he better than Kyle or 36...? Not in my opinion.
I can't see him imposing himself physically at international level. A bit like JTH - he's quite big but hardly a freak athlete.
His distribution isn't as good as either Kyle or 36 - particularly when they are playing well.

Tomkins is decent - I don't think he's going to set the world alight.
But he has shown that he can offload well and is much more comfortable as a union player now.
It should be between him and JJ I think. I would prefer to have Tomkins right now because he has more ability to be direct than JJ does.
And let's be honest whoever plays there will be replaced by Manu the second he is fit.

Will Fraser is talented and seems like a good guy.
If we're reverting back to the traditional back row set-up then we are going to need more than one openside, so it makes sense to bring him in now.
Even if he isn't to play, it will be good to have him around the system. (as NZ do with their future talents)
 
Cheers maaaaaan

My logic on Robshaw/Quins/England runs like this...

The purpose of Robshaw is to do two people's work in terms of tackling, carrying, linking play and so on. If he is unable to do that for whatever reason, he needs dropping. I don't think that has been the case though. His breakdown work is underappreciated, but its a bonus, and its a bonus that happens against more careless teams. He is not a Pocock and never will be. That is Robshaw. He will rarely do exceptional things himself but his work rate frees up other people to do exceptional things.

The ideal back-row for Robshaw consists of two other players who can do exceptional things and have exceptional athleticism. Robshaw can free those players up. Goes slightly for the whole pack.

For Quins, I can see the linked poster's argument, but don't think Wallace is there yet. Too hit and miss. Given the loss of power in the tight five, it was always going to be either or, you can't drop Fa'asavaalu (sp) when you're already short of power. Long term, a Robshaw-Wallace partnership sounds great, but needs a wrecking ball at 8/a nice big tight five. Quins currently don't have that. Quins fans do seem divided on just how good/in form Robshaw is at the moment though, which is worrying.

For England... Robshaw works, but the question becomes whether we have more exceptional players to create a stronger unit - or I suppose, more exceptional flankers. Well, that and is he in form. For me, I'd probably move him back to 6 and pair him with Kvesic.

p.s. Burrell - meh. Tomkins - meh. Fraser - he's fit?

edit: Long term, I increasingly think I want Launchbury as 6.
 
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Robshaw's carrying is heinous, though.
Watched him vs Scarlets and it was a bit embarrassing how weak he carries considering he's an international (/England captain). Doesn't make hard yards at all, just gets smashed straight down no matter what size the defender.


He never used to be like this, but in the past two years (since everyone started fannying around telling him he's a 7) he's nose dived. Stats are deceptive,you can see it with your own eyes.
Same thing happened with Fearns and O'Brien (though O'Brien has gone back to playing more like a 6/8, just with better ruck work, at 7 now) when shoehorned in at openside.
 
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For me, I'd probably move him back to 6 and pair him with Kvesic.

p.s. Burrell - meh. Tomkins - meh. Fraser - he's fit?

edit: Long term, I increasingly think I want Launchbury as 6.

Probably what I'd do.

We do need an OC though - who would you pick?
Fraser is fit... 6 weeks ahead of schedule.

I could go with that - as and when we have a TH lock and openside playing and functioning properly.
 
Well fair play to Will Fraser then, might as well have him around the set-up.

As for OC - I would panic as none of the options seem to have both the form and the class.

I wouldn't promote Burrell, his defence has not been good enough and he's not troubling the established order at 12. I would use this to promote two 13s and take a proper look at the options. Since Trinder's injured himself, and I can't just promote him for Tait, and then from there for whoever... Tomkins and Joseph I guess. I was going to say Anthony Allen, who would strike me as a reliable pick, but he's injured too. Tempted to chuck Daly in but that's probably a bad temptation.

I might just play Eastmond-Twelvetrees as 12-13.

And yeah, those two things are why I said long term!
 
Robshaw's carrying is heinous, though.
Watched him vs Scarlets and it was a bit embarrassing how weak he carries considering he's an international (/England captain). Doesn't make hard yards at all, just gets smashed straight down no matter what size the defender.


He never used to be like this, but in the past two years (since everyone started fannying around telling him he's a 7) he's nose dived. Stats are deceptive,you can see it with your own eyes.
Same thing happened with Fearns and O'Brien (though O'Brien has gone back to playing more like a 6/8, just with better ruck work, at 7 now) when shoehorned in at openside.

I thought you were a big Robshaw fan? Would you rate/select Tom Wood ahead of him for November instead?

Interesting not many are endorsing many Lancaster's theories from last season on this thread. Few think Lancaster favourites Robshaw, Farrell and Barritt should all be certain first choice starters, and literally nobody wants to see or thinks that Mike Brown or Tom Wood out of position again are the best options. Most seem to be giving Chris Ashton the benefit of the doubt for another chance this November after his last poor season though.
 
I was a massive Robshaw fan...when he was playing at 6. Looked genuinely on his way to being a worldclass blindside but then Quins had injuries at 7, shifted him across, and he's been getting more mediocre by the game.

My backrow for the EOYT would be Wood, Kvesic, Vunipola
 
I thought Robshaw moving to openside had an awful lot to do with him targeting an England shirt there. Can't agree with Olyy's depiction of him as mediocre - and feel his sheer workload of games explains much of what decline there has been. Not sure losing weight was a great idea for him.

As for agreeing with Lancaster's ideas... I feel there's been widespread impatience with Lancaster's idea of a backline for some time. Can anyone name a non-Argentine playing Lancaster backline they were genuinely happy with? I can't off the top of my head.

i'd say wood, croft and morgan

Difficult when Croft is out for the season!

Robshaw hasn't been great this season, but Wood's probably done himself even less favours for what my money's worth. And Wood has few fewer excuses for that.
 
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Knowing Lancaster's style it will be

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

then if Morgan doesn't pick up form we will see Binny come in and same with kvesic and robshaw. I saw Mr Healey picked Lawes at 6 which i is a nice idea in theory but doesn't work in reality (saying that as a saints fan).
 
Backrow is not difficult....

Has Kvesic done enough to get selected ahead of Robshaw? No
Has Wood done enough to get the 6 shirt? Yes just about but Johnson is pushing him
Has Billy played better than Morgan? very much so.

6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Billy

Done
 
My England Team ?

1. Corbiserio
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. parling
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Wood
8. B. Vuinpola
9. D.Care
10. O. Farrell
11.Wade
12. Eastmond
13. Twelvetress
14. Yarde
15. Foden
 
Why do bad things always happen to Leicester at the start of the season (only for them to come back and destroy teams later on)?
 
Big shame for him, and for Leicester (though Bowden is playing very well at the moment) - doesn't really effect England much/at all, as I'd imagine he's at least 4th in line for the 12 shirt.
 

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