Would NZ pick Nadolo ?

[Darwin]

Mate the heart of my argument is that if you put any of the Fijian wingers in the place of those All Blacks they would more than likely do what those guys have done and even more. Cory Jane was and average sevens player. And Piutau was used as a centre that's because he didn't have the pace to be a winger. Several occasions he was clear and got caught from behind.

Cory Jane was an outstanding 7's player. He was clearly one of the best 7's players in the world from 2005-2007 (before he eventually established himself as a 15's player). I can only assume you are either trolling or never watched him play 7's....

Piutau was used in the middle of the field in 7's because Tiejtens uses big fast guys in the middle of the field to hit the ball up and clear out breakdowns. If you have watched the NZ 7's team anytime over the last 10 years you will notice they don't actually use their fastest players out wide - they normally station their big forwards out-wide to attempt to force a size mis-match.....

Everyone knows Fiji's forwards internationally are crap hence the wingers don't have lots of go forward ball and space like the All Blacks do. When you look at club level where the All Blacks wingers and Fijian wingers have same quality balls because of similar forwards then the results is like last season's where Super rugby top try scorer Nadolo with even less games he still was way ahead of Savea, Smith and Jane. And in the Aviva premiership Goneva was the top try scorers despite missing a few games too through injuries. And in the top 14 Talebula was top try scorer.
Put it this way if Savea, Jane and Smith were playing for Fiji and Nadolo, Goneva, Ratini, Talebula and Viriviri played for the All Blacks who do you think will be talked about more?

If Nadolo, Goneva, Ratini, Talebula, Viriviri were playing for the AB's people would certainly be talking about them..... they would probably be asking why the AB's have such poor wings I'm only kidding - they are good players from what I have seen - but most aren't as complete as the current AB's wings, so wouldn't even make the current AB's squad if they were eligible.....

Another point, Sivivatu and Rokocoko both became stars for the All Blacks yet a Fijian winger in the form of Caucau was a level above them when they played in the same competition super rugby. Had Caucau been eligible for NZ he would have been selected and so would Vunibaka. Same again last season at club level Nadolo was better than Savea but he also wasn't eligible for NZ. Speight in the same competition got selected for Aussie.
In England Goneva was the best winger but he wasn't eligible for them so they picked one who was Rokoduguni whom playing behind a England pack would flourish him. Imagine if Goneva was eligible.

Again Caucau was phenomenal. No-one is denying that. It doesn't mean that every other Fijian wing is equally good. The AB's probably wouldn't have picked Vunibaka even if he had been eligible.

If you judge wings performances solely by the number of tries they score Nadolo did have a better Super Rugby season than Savea. However if you judge them on their performances on the field Savea had a far superior season. Nadolo was very good for the Crusaders, but Savea was at a different level.

I understand that you rate Fijian wings very highly. That's fine - there is no doubt that Fiji has some excellent wing options at the moment (who would be your preferred starting wings for Fiji out of their current squad?). Don't be surprised if people disagree when you suggest a wing who has played a single match of professional rugby is among the best wings in the world though

 

[Flyingdolphins]

You're too funny mann. Between 2005 and 2007 in sevens was William Ryders time in 7s and believe me as a Fijian I watched every single game. New Zealand have a bosh game plan because they don't usually have a fast enough wing to be a threat. Jane was an average 7s player. William Ryder made him look like a headless chicken. Piutau was first used as a winger and when NZ realised his pace wasn't fast enough they move him to centre and tried different players on the wing. Moving Cama one out from scrum half to play maker when on offence to use Piutau as first phase bosh before swinging it back towards Forbes and the forwards and when they manage to either have mismatched or numbers they then spread it out wide again. I can talk to you about 7s all day mate.
All of the Fiji wings would make the All Blacks squads especially if snails like Jane and Savea are considered. As for Vunibaka you kidding me mate. They picked Caleph Ralph and he was behind Vunibaka in the pecking order at the Crusaders. They even picked Scott Hamilton for crying out Loud.

 

[Darwin]

^^^^^^
You are right. Jane was an average 7's player. Piutau and Savea are slow. Every Fijian wing would easily make the AB's squad....... even those that have played only a single match of professional rugby.

How could I have been so foolish to have believed otherwise......

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Well if the All Blacks picked Caleph Ralph and Scott Hamilton then my points are valid mate.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Shane Williams > Savea.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Well if the All Blacks picked Caleph Ralph and Scott Hamilton then my points are valid mate.

Yeah any old kid with a bit of pace would have made the AB's ahead of them.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Not really however one who is on top of them in their club the Crusaders will have a good chance don't you think?

 

[donmcdazzle]

Not really however one who is on top of them in their club the Crusaders will have a good chance don't you think?

After reading through your other posts I'm not sure why I am engaging as I'll likely be talking to a brick wall but here goes anyway.

I agree with you that Fijian wingers, generally speaking, are the fastest and most elusive wingers in world footy. In NZ we have always had a sprinkling of Fijian wingers in provincial footy, going back to Waisake Sotutu, Paula Bale etc.

However, have you ever entertained the thought that some coaches don't just pick wingers on how fast and elusive they are with ball in hand? The period where Caleb Ralph was chosen was where Robbie Deans and Mitchell were coaching - they certainly had their favourites. Christian Cullen couldn't even make a squad so just looking at the squad and saying well Ralph made it, any decent Fijian could have is a stupid position to take. There were better outside backs than Vunibaka that were ignored for the likes of Ralph, Ben Blair etc in that period.

Hamilton was more of an outside back cover, and was only called in due to injuries. I didn't love the selection but at least he had decent all around play and could cover a few positions. Imagine Vunibaka at fullback for the AB's... yeah wouldn't happen.

By the way, Vunibaka, for all his pace had horrible skills. He would never have even been considered for the AB's. He literally only had extreme pace. Biff him in the AB's and yip he would have scored some tries, but he would have made way too many blunders to have ever been picked consistently anyway.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Fair enough. Everything you mentioned was spot on. However I truly believed that if Vunibaka was chosen the All Blacks coaching skills and tactical nous would have made him better just like how they would have manage Caucau better if he had been an All Black. Remember pace is something you can't teach. Vunibaka had that, his weaknesses I believed the All Blacks coaching team would have worked on it and turn him into a truly world class winger. The Crusader showed that it was possible to fit him in and teach him. When he left Fiji 7s and his first few games for Crusaders his positioning was terrible buy slowly he became better. His coaching became apparent. Last season Ratini was lost in terms of positioning and only scored 6 tries for the whole season. This season his positioning has improved thanks to his coaching and with his natural pace and flair he's on fire hence his the current top 14 top try scorer with 8 tries already in only 5 games.

Viriviri in his first 2 games I've noticed his positioning is off as well but he's shown glimpses of his flair and pace. With more coaching and experience he'll be flying high like how he flied on the sevens circuit last season winning the top try scorer award as well as the IRB Sevens Series player of the season award.

 

[psychic duck]

After reading through your other posts I'm not sure why I am engaging as I'll likely be talking to a brick wall but here goes anyway.

I agree with you that Fijian wingers, generally speaking, are the fastest and most elusive wingers in world footy. In NZ we have always had a sprinkling of Fijian wingers in provincial footy, going back to Waisake Sotutu, Paula Bale etc.

However, have you ever entertained the thought that some coaches don't just pick wingers on how fast and elusive they are with ball in hand? The period where Caleb Ralph was chosen was where Robbie Deans and Mitchell were coaching - they certainly had their favourites. Christian Cullen couldn't even make a squad so just looking at the squad and saying well Ralph made it, any decent Fijian could have is a stupid position to take. There were better outside backs than Vunibaka that were ignored for the likes of Ralph, Ben Blair etc in that period.

Hamilton was more of an outside back cover, and was only called in due to injuries. I didn't love the selection but at least he had decent all around play and could cover a few positions. Imagine Vunibaka at fullback for the AB's... yeah wouldn't happen.

By the way, Vunibaka, for all his pace had horrible skills. He would never have even been considered for the AB's. He literally only had extreme pace. Biff him in the AB's and yip he would have scored some tries, but he would have made way too many blunders to have ever been picked consistently anyway.

What you say on Vunibaka is true, but it should be noted he worked really hard to turn from just a 7's guy with a pace into a top level standard Super 12 winger, which back before the dilution of the competition with more teams and players leaving in their prime was a good achievement for someone who wasn't that gifted with his hands (despite being a superb athlete), although he is a way off from being considered anywhere near the same bracket as the awesome group AB wingers who played in the same era.

Here's a good example of epic pace but awful hand of the big man from his early S12 days.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Nice video but that doesn't show he had awful hands more like the unexpected bounce of the rugby ball. And as for Fijian wingers and their hands skills, this guys mostly are from the Fiji sevens team which is renowned for entertaining fans worldwide. Their silky hands in offloads, pop passes and various other silky skills played at pace. In terms of pure hands skills like one hand pick up, back of the hand pass, one hand pass, under the legs, over the top, basketball flick, volleyball tab the Fijian sevens teams is day light ahead of the All Blacks 15s and 7s team.

And most of this Fijian wingers come from that sevens team. Positioning yes most will struggle at first but with better coaching they'll learn but handling skills please Serevi and Co the kings at it.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Mate, to suggest that Fijian wingers have the best skills out of anyone just shows your insane bias. I'd say the biggest thing holding them back are their lack of basic skills and high error rates.. No doubt they can pull of outrageous/miraculous plays every now and then, but I think you'll find (this is massive generalisation) they drop a hell of a lot of ball and throw more **** passes than their slower and less razzle dazzle counterparts. I haven't even started on kicking, which is a basic skill of the 15's game.

 

[psychic duck]

Nice video but that doesn't show he had awful hands more like the unexpected bounce of the rugby ball. And as for Fijian wingers and their hands skills, this guys mostly are from the Fiji sevens team which is renowned for entertaining fans worldwide. Their silky hands in offloads, pop passes and various other silky skills played at pace. In terms of pure hands skills like one hand pick up, back of the hand pass, one hand pass, under the legs, over the top, basketball flick, volleyball tab the Fijian sevens teams is day light ahead of the All Blacks 15s and 7s team.

And most of this Fijian wingers come from that sevens team. Positioning yes most will struggle at first but with better coaching they'll learn but handling skills please Serevi and Co the kings at it.

Wasn't saying all Fiji wingers had bad hands, just that Vunibaka specifically had to work hard to cut them out before coming a consistent top level Super 12 winger.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Fair enough. I agree with you in that point. Vunibaka kinds of reminds me of Habana. All the pace but no brain lol...

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Mate, to suggest that Fijian wingers have the best skills out of anyone just shows your insane bias. I'd say the biggest thing holding them back are their lack of basic skills and high error rates.. No doubt they can pull of outrageous/miraculous plays every now and then, but I think you'll find (this is massive generalisation) they drop a hell of a lot of ball and throw more **** passes than their slower and less razzle dazzle counterparts. I haven't even started on kicking, which is a basic skill of the 15's game.

Mate have you watched the Fijian sevens team play? YouTube them and you'll see what I'm on about. You bring in kicking, are you kidding me, to quote the legendary New Zealand sevens coach Gordon Tietjens "if you wanna kick go do karate".

Last season alone Fijian wingers topped the try scoring charts in the super rugby, aviva premiership and top 14. This season currently the top 14 top try scorer is a Fijian followed by another Fijian. You see this guys don't need to kick because they can side step, goose step and break tackles. If you check their stats on line breaks and meters gained you'll see why they're the top try scorers.

In the same competition as this Fijian wingers are wingers from top tier international teams. For example in the super rugby last season if you compare Nadolo and Savea not only did Nadolo score more tries, he had more line breaks and gained more meters. Same goes for Vereniki Goneva in the aviva premiership.

Nadolo even kicks the goal for the Fiji team and he seems pretty good at it therefore in terms of kicking he also is better. As for dropping alot of balls again this guys are from the Fiji sevens team that plays at a phenomenal pace where they have to catch the ball at speed and also do their magic pass while at it. And they happen to be great at it which is why fans worldwide love them. YouTube the irb and watch the top 7 tries in the recent IRB series gold coast sevens in Australia. Watch the Fiji tries, my favourite is the one against Wales where the commentator was so thrilled he said that they the Fijian sevens team look like they're having a party.

 

[psychic duck]

Mate have you watched the Fijian sevens team play? YouTube them and you'll see what I'm on about. You bring in kicking, are you kidding me, to quote the legendary New Zealand sevens coach Gordon Tietjens "if you wanna kick go do karate".

Last season alone Fijian wingers topped the try scoring charts in the super rugby, aviva premiership and top 14. This season currently the top 14 top try scorer is a Fijian followed by another Fijian. You see this guys don't need to kick because they can side step, goose step and break tackles. If you check their stats on line breaks and meters gained you'll see why they're the top try scorers.

In the same competition as this Fijian wingers are wingers from top tier international teams. For example in the super rugby last season if you compare Nadolo and Savea not only did Nadolo score more tries, he had more line breaks and gained more meters. Same goes for Vereniki Goneva in the aviva premiership.

Nadolo even kicks the goal for the Fiji team and he seems pretty good at it therefore in terms of kicking he also is better. As for dropping alot of balls again this guys are from the Fiji sevens team that plays at a phenomenal pace where they have to catch the ball at speed and also do their magic pass while at it. And they happen to be great at it which is why fans worldwide love them. YouTube the irb and watch the top 7 tries in the recent IRB series gold coast sevens in Australia. Watch the Fiji tries, my favourite is the one against Wales where the commentator was so thrilled he said that they the Fijian sevens team look like they're having a party.

There are some Fijians who aren't the most skilful at elements of the game such as being under the high ball, positioning or handling etc. Vunibaka was one from a few years back (although he improved), more recent examples include clumsy going backwards Nalaga and butterfingers Nagusa. Don't get me wrong, they all have very strong plus points as well than more than counteract their weak points to be very good value and important players for their respective teams, but when we're considering players for up there as best in the world those weak points come into play. Same with this discussion when comparing Nadolo with the AB wingers, a squad where it's notoriously hard to get a permanent starting berth.

Goneva is actually one of the most complete Fijian wingers skillset wise, a shame it took him until about 28 to get to a leading club.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

Nalaga was top try scorer for 2 seasons in a row in France. He took over that tag from Caucau whom had it for 2 seasons in a row to. Let's me honest mate, the wingers job is to score tries primarily. How they get to that try line depends on how good the team they play for providing them with go forward balls. The All Blacks do that for their wingers so do clubs around the world. How they get to the try line usually is up to the wingers. If a winger like Jane for example is so good at high balls and kicks then how come his try scoring record is low. What's the point of being able to kick if you can't find the try line. French clubs pick alot of Fijian wingers because they realise that Fijian wingers are the best finishers in the world. It almost now customary for French clubs to have a Fijian winger to the point they're now setting up academies in Fiji to have a consistent supply of lethal finishers.

Most of this Fijian wingers are going to France because of better pay than in NZ and Australia whom also can only have 1 or 2 foreign players as far as their policies are concerned.

Australia have chosen Speight a former Fijian age group representative, France had Naikataci in their squad on the summer tour, England have just picked a Fijian too Rokoduguni. There's a reason why this big international teams and clubs are picking Fijian wingers.

Put it this way, Jane and Savea wouldn't even be considered for the Fiji sevens team let alone get picked.

 

[nickdnz]

Nalaga was top try scorer for 2 seasons in a row in France. He took over that tag from Caucau whom had it for 2 seasons in a row to. Let's me honest mate, the wingers job is to score tries primarily. How they get to that try line depends on how good the team they play for providing them with go forward balls. The All Blacks do that for their wingers so do clubs around the world. How they get to the try line usually is up to the wingers. If a winger like Jane for example is so good at high balls and kicks then how come his try scoring record is low. What's the point of being able to kick if you can't find the try line. French clubs pick alot of Fijian wingers because they realise that Fijian wingers are the best finishers in the world. It almost now customary for French clubs to have a Fijian winger to the point they're now setting up academies in Fiji to have a consistent supply of lethal finishers.

Most of this Fijian wingers are going to France because of better pay than in NZ and Australia whom also can only have 1 or 2 foreign players as far as their policies are concerned.

Australia have chosen Speight a former Fijian age group representative, France had Naikataci in their squad on the summer tour, England have just picked a Fijian too Rokoduguni. There's a reason why this big international teams and clubs are picking Fijian wingers.

Put it this way, Jane and Savea wouldn't even be considered for the Fiji sevens team let alone get picked.

So hang on wait, I've been finding you hard to follow. I think what you are saying - and please correct me if I'm wrong - is that you believe Fiji has the best wingers in the world? I think it's taken 52 posts of the same drivel, but I now am certain everyone has no doubt that you think Fijian wingers are better than any other nations wingers. Great. Sorted. Move on.

 

[Flyingdolphins]

I don't think I know they are. And it's backed up by facts, last season top try scorers in Super Rugby, Top 14 and Aviva premiership. Along with that they have amazing stats on line breaks, metres gained, off load etc etc. And especially the NZ guys are coming up with drivels like oh our wings can kick and they're in the All Blacks so they must be the best in the world. It doesn't matter if they didn't score much as long as they can kick they're the best. So yeah its sorted Fijian wingers are the best so let's move on.

 

[nickdnz]

I don't think I know they are. And it's backed up by facts, last season top try scorers in Super Rugby, Top 14 and Aviva premiership. Along with that they have amazing stats on line breaks, metres gained, off load etc etc. And especially the NZ guys are coming up with drivels like oh our wings can kick and they're in the All Blacks so they must be the best in the world. It doesn't matter if they didn't score much as long as they can kick they're the best. So yeah its sorted Fijian wingers are the best so let's move on.

Great.