Who would pick in the All Blacks to build depth in the squad

[Larksea]

Things i'd like to see done in the AB's

We dont need specialist cover for McCaw, I think either way the best man for that job is Messam. He maybe the best running loose forward in NZ, he can be brutal on defence and his accuracy has improved a LOT over the last year. His Passing game has really come on over the last 6 months. He has a bit more speed & agility than Reid & Vito and More power and Physicality than Thompson. He does win turnovers, he won two critical ones in the ~8min he had on the field in the 2nd boks test. Plus he's on of those rare players that somply never seems to get injured even though he always gives 110% IMO under the new rules The battle for the advantage line has become more important than the breakdown and if you win the advantage line you dictate the breakdown anyway. Messam is a player that can help win that battle either on defence or attack.

If I had to pick a 7 it would be Waldrum ahead of Latimer, Lowe & Braid (in that order) I like waldrums intensity. He puts his body on the line and I think it intimidates the oposition. The way he tackles and takes the ball to the line will help win the all important advantage line battle.

I'd like to see Boric get more game time, he was the pick of the locks before he got injured this year, He even outplayed Thorn. But since the headclash he hasn't been given another chance. Boric is one of the hardest working players in NZ rugby IMO, he's in amazing shape physically.

Hika Elliot looks to be getting back to his best. Maybe i'm being unfair but I've never been a fan of Flynn. Aled is a machine, hope he gets his lineout right.

Guildford - hasn't been his best. the new rules have actually hurt his game because he was so good at cleaning up at the back. But he's lacking just a bit of extra oompf! The huge workrate and great defence arn't enough under the new rules. He needs another yard of speed & power. And I think he needs to work on getting between players and using the fend.

Savea! This guy is nuts, he flows along the grass like a river he's so smooth. Future AB material for sure and even maybe more than that, maybe an all black great in the making. This guy could be the next big thing. But it just may be too close to the world cup to bring him into the all blacks now?

Leonard, I honestly think that when he's on his game he is the best halfback in New Zealand, he's looking very good in the ITM cup, his defence is superb to the point he may even be over taking Cowan in that area. He easily has more speed than Cowan. If He stays injury free and Waikato get a good run into the finals Leonard will be odds on for the end of year tour. cowan hasn't been much good all year. His clearance is slow, oh painfully slow! Weepu comes on and all of a sudden the ball is coming out so much faster and the backs have room to move! Leonard is even faster than Weepu, Nuf said.

McAlister - I actually think that he will shine if he gets back into the AB's squad. He's being held back with Harbor, I think his performances for the Maori were a better indication of where his game is at. Sonny Bill may be the one who stands in his way. I dont think stanley has done enough to keep his spot in the squad.

Other than that you have to wonder what is going to happen to the players that are currently out with injury that were regulars in the test 22 ?

Williams - 2 years ago he was as important to the AB's as Carter & McCaw, was an awesome partnership with Thorn.

Kahui - every secound this guy has played in a black jersey has been gold. Rare tallent that performs another 20% for the AB's doesn't admit it himself but looks seriosuly fast on a rugby field.

Toeava - this last operation just may end the string of injuries that have held him back. Maybe the most dangerous Back in NZ when he's on his game.

Hore - Been NZ's top hooker for over two years but Mealamu climed back through the window. AB's have always been at their best with these two working as a tag team. Hore is a leader on the field and you always see him talking to McCaw during the game. Cant help but feel he plays a big part in how the AB's manage their tactics during the game in the forwards anyway.

Sivivatu - over the last 4 years he has been the AB's most reliable attacking weapon, he has an ability to find gaps even when the other 14 players on the field cant seem to find them. Arguably the best winger in the world. All due respect to Rokocoko but the Idea of Sivi coming back and re-forming the back 3 team with Mills & Jane is something the All Black Coaches will trying to make a reality.

 

[nickdnz]

Things i'd like to see done in the AB's

We dont need specialist cover for McCaw, I think either way the best man for that job is Messam. He maybe the best running loose forward in NZ, he can be brutal on defence and his accuracy has improved a LOT over the last year. His Passing game has really come on over the last 6 months. He has a bit more speed & agility than Reid & Vito and More power and Physicality than Thompson. He does win turnovers, he won two critical ones in the ~8min he had on the field in the 2nd boks test. Plus he's on of those rare players that somply never seems to get injured even though he always gives 110% IMO under the new rules The battle for the advantage line has become more important than the breakdown and if you win the advantage line you dictate the breakdown anyway. Messam is a player that can help win that battle either on defence or attack.

Makes for an interesting read your development team, but I'd doubt very much that Messam has more speed than Vito.

Players who'd I'd like to see given a shot for the AB's beofre the RWC.

Props - We have Woodcock, Owen Franks, Ben Franks, John Afoa and likely Neemia Tialata (ugh) for the RWC squad, there aren't too many new props that have really stood out for an AB jersey, so no new tests.

Hookers - Kevin Mealamu, Andrew Hore and Aled de Melmanche. Cory Flynn is over rated. Hika Elliot has impressed me, but it's too late to bother trying new hookers, especially considering we have Hore and Mealamu as the imcumbants, there seems like no point.

Second Row - Brad Thorn, Tom Donnelly and Sam Whitelock have all had a great Tri Nations, so they all can stay. Anthony Boric can **** right off (not a bad players, just adds nothing more than mediocrety). I'd like to see both Ali Williams tested before the RWC at NPC, but if he's back in form then I'd be happy that he's in. Chris Jack I think has done great work with Tasman, so I'd like to see him on the EoYT. That's it for my locks.

Flankers - Jerome Kaino and Victor Vito are all good for the blind side. Liam Messam is just far too messy to be great blind side. Yes he has impressive skills, but he just doesn't do the grunt work that is needed. Richie McCaw obviously can stay in the squad, and I'd add Daniel Braid as the backup. I wouldn't mind seeing Scott Waldrom get a run in the back jersey, but he hasn't been in the form he was in during the Hurricanes 2008 season (injury was the problem). I think Braid is our answer to openside worries. Kieren Read has impresseed me hugely at #8 this year, and he has to be considered one of the best #8's in the world, which would have been laughable two years ago. I'd love to see Rodney So'oialo make a comeback, but I doubt he'll be able to regain form.

Halfback - Peri Weepu, Jimmie Cowan and Alby Mathewson. Judging from Laksea's selection, he lives in Hamilton, but Brendon Leonard is rubbish. He's quick, but that's about it. His defence is average, he knocks the ball on consistantly, his passing is average at best. Alby Mathewson needs a few starts, but he's consistantly looked like the best attacking halfback in New Zealand.

First 5/8th - Daniel Carter, Aaron Cruden and Colin Slade. That's it. Delany could have another crack, but I don't care either way. Donald has shown he's not a great fly half at international level, Steven Prett is so hot and cold it's not funny. Robbie Robinson is too young and hasn't been given enough exposure to international rugby, for him to be a real option come RWC.

Centres - Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Richard Kahui and Rene Ranger all should get another crack (keep Ranger away from the wing, he's good there, but there are better options, he could develop into a great centre). I'd give Luke McAlister another crack, as he seems to have really matured and developed as a player. Great skill, amazing boot (63m kick!!!), has gotten huge, give him a crack on the EoYT. Sonny Bill Williams I'd give a crack, seeing as we've payed so much for him the NZRU would look like fools if they didn't give him a go. Isia Toeava I'd also give a shot to prove he's ready to be an All Black.

Wings - The hardest selections for AB's in my opinion. Joe Rokocoko has looked good this Tri Nations. Should he have been given this amount of time to come right? Maybe not, but now he's looking decent again, keep him in. Hosea Gear must be in the squad (I've been pushing this for the best part of two years), he hasn't scored many tries this ITM Cup, but he's set up so many and looked just generally brilliant. Lelia Masaga scored a hat trick last match, but they weren't the hardest tries to score, and as awsome as he was in 2008, I'd have to say there are better options. He has till the end of the ITM Cup to prove me wrong. Sitivini Sivivatu is pretty much an automatic selection. Julian Savea has ****** me right off, because the last thing NZ needed was another brilliant winger to take the attention off of Hosea Gear. I'd like to see him given a shot come next year's June Internations, so he has a season of S15, but he'd be a good selection for the EoYT anyway. So my selection for the EoYT would be Rokocoko, Gear and Sivivatu if fit.

Fullback: Cory Jane is a f*cking fullback. Yes he's a brilliant winger, but he's even better at Fullback. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PUT HIM AT FULLBACK DURING THE EOYT! Israel Dagg hasn't put a foot out of place. I don't think he's the nest Christian Cullen, but he's definetly got some good skill, and development can't hurt at all. Mils is pretty much guarenteed a spot, but after the RWC, I think Cory Jane or Dagg need to replace him (he'll probably have 100 caps by then, so it's not a too cruel move).

That's just my thoughts on players to test come the RWC.

 

[Larksea]

bugger not used to this forum yet, just lost a big post!

Good post Nick, I agree with a lot of it.

And I do agree Messam's game as been messy at times but if people are willing to take another look now he has addressed those issues with his game and his accuracy is much better. He has at times tried to do too much but he's much more settled now, this last game for waikato I dont believe he made a single mistake. And the way his passing has devaloped is pretty impressive. He's pulled of some awesome passes over the last few weeks and setup a lot of trys. As far as speed goes yes Vito is pretty fast, he's a good straight line runner for his size but he does not have the raw speed Messam Does. Messam & Thompson would be an interesting foot race but I'd say Messam is maybe the fastest Loose forward in NZ and he does have a lot more power and Physicality than Thompson, which is why he's edged thompon out of the AB squad. Also out of he, Thompson & Vito - Messam seems to be to be by far the most confident #8 to the point in the AB's squad I would have Vito as cover for 6 and Messam for Cover for 7 & 8. In interviews Vito has said himself that he much prefers 6 and he was noticably nervious talking about the prospect of playing 8 for the AB's.

I do agree with some of your observations on Leonard too. His Passing has been messy but I will say that compared to Cowan, leonard clears so fast that even if the 10 has to streatch to get the ball, it's come out so fast that he will still have time to make a play. problem with Cowan is his delivery is so slow that if the pass isn't good the 10 is in trouble... Also note that tawera kerr-barlow's passing was MUCH better than Leonards passing in the early rounds of the ITM cup and that put the heat on leonard. The improvement in his passing over the last two weeks has been fantastic, to the point that leonards passing in the harbor game was just as good as kerr-barlow's. Reall spot on. I dont believe Leonards defence has ever been in question, he's a fantastic tackler and makes try saving tackles every week. He missed on on the weekend but that was because for some reason a huge gap appeard in the waikato backline and Leonard was the only player to make it over to cover it from the ruck and didn't quite make it.

Also IMO over the last two years Cowan hasn't been playing well. Not for the highlanders or the all blacks. He has usally been the talasman for the highlanders, playing well in an average side and carrying the team. This year he wasn't and he was lucky to be selected on reputation rather than form, but since then he's been totally outclassed by Weepu.

I do agree Leonard does now need to become more consistant, but I think he is on track to get on the end of year tour.

Props, franks brothers are awesome. They really are the savour of NZ rugby. Owens temper worries me a bit, he threw some punches in a scrum this weekend right in front of the ref, he got away with it but if that were a test match he would have been carded, maybe even red carded and then spent a couple of weeks on the sideline, I hope he sorts that out. It may be the reason Owen has had more gametime over the last two tests.

Jamie MacIntosh has really been building well since he came back from injury. His first game back was the barbarians game where he dominated Newlands in the scrum and I'd say he just maybe the best pick n go forward in the ITM cup, two tries this weekend. Looks in great shape, I'd say right now he is NZ's next best loosehead. Also note that Crockett looks like he's back playing well again. Another prop that suits the new rules, got unlucky with the refs for a while for some reason.

Lastly Sonny Bill Williams. Very impressive on the weeknd, one shocking kick! But his passing game really was superb. I now think he will make a good combination with fruen I wouldn't have though that last week. But that passing game of his will really create chances for Fruen and the outside backs as well. Lots of strong hitups, offloads and a few good tackles. IMO yes there is all black potential there for sure.

lastly just to prove I support players from all over NZ! Jared Payne is in sweltering form for northland (yes I guess he is a waikato product) yes he's a very outside chance for and end of year tour but his class cant be denied. Do wonder where he is going to show up in super rugby with Dagg now at the Crucaders? Looks to me like he should be a sure starter in super15 somewhere. He and Ranger working together is just mind blowing!

 

[Sam Owen]

bugger not used to this forum yet, just lost a big post!

As far as speed goes yes Vito is pretty fast, he's a good straight line runner for his size but he does not have the raw speed Messam Does. Messam & Thompson would be an interesting foot race but I'd say Messam is maybe the fastest Loose forward in NZ and he does have a lot more power and Physicality than Thompson, which is why he's edged thompon out of the AB squad.

I do agree with some of your observations on Leonard too. His Passing has been messy but I will say that compared to Cowan, leonard clears so fast that even if the 10 has to streatch to get the ball, it's come out so fast that he will still have time to make a play. problem with Cowan is his delivery is so slow that if the pass isn't good the 10 is in trouble... Also note that tawera kerr-barlow's passing was MUCH better than Leonards passing in the early rounds of the ITM cup and that put the heat on leonard. The improvement in his passing over the last two weeks has been fantastic, to the point that leonards passing in the harbor game was just as good as kerr-barlow's. Reall spot on. I dont believe Leonards defence has ever been in question, he's a fantastic tackler and makes try saving tackles every week. He missed on on the weekend but that was because for some reason a huge gap appeard in the waikato backline and Leonard was the only player to make it over to cover it from the ruck and didn't quite make it.

Also IMO over the last two years Cowan hasn't been playing well. Not for the highlanders or the all blacks. He has usally been the talasman for the highlanders, playing well in an average side and carrying the team. This year he wasn't and he was lucky to be selected on reputation rather than form, but since then he's been totally outclassed by Weepu.

I do agree Leonard does now need to become more consistant, but I think he is on track to get on the end of year tour.

First of all I hate it when you lose a big post, Ive done it before and gave up on my reply altogether lol so good on ya Larksea for gettin back on the horse so to speak.

About Messam he's probably the more robust player of the 3 mentioned (Vito, Thompson and Messam) and bit of a line breaker but Im not sure if he's the fastest of the 3, Vito looks quite quick. However Messam is getting better as time goes on and I think is more experienced of the 3 (Im not sure on that one).

Like Ive said before about Leonard, he's a quiet All Black. Im a fan of Brendon when he plays Super Rugby for the Chiefs, just a brilliant oppertunist runner and a reliable finisher but when he plays for the ABs none of this happens. You could argue he doesnt get the oppertunity but at international level theres very few and thats why I think Weepu is a good choice from Henry and co. Piri is a strong lad, goes forward better than Leo and Cow, harder to put down which makes the chances of turning the ball over from him harder also and is more of a line-breaker.

Weepu through line breaks creates his own oppertunities for him and his team, Leonard normally depends on oppertunities created by others but given the oppertunity Leonard will punish as I think his athleticism and speed sets him apart from Jimmy and Piri. When Weepu breaks he uses his vision for someone to feed, when Brendons through he sprints and scores.

You know Zinzan when he first broke into the All Blacks, like Leonard he too had problems showing why he was there. Not only was he picked over the great warrior All Black (and the first man to haka properly) Wayne 'Buck' Shelford which started the 'BRING BACK BUCK' campaign but Zinny, who was a standout in the NPC struggled to fire at international level. As years went on Zinny like Buck went on to become a great NZ no.8, what Im really tryin to say is, in time Leonard will become better at international level just maybe not now.

 

[Larksea]

yeah it often takes time for players to become good at timernational level. Just look at Conrad Smith and Nonu for example, they have been in and around the All Blacks for years. Really it took them 3-4 years for them to actually establish themselves as quality international players and make proper contributions on the field! Pretty staggering. I definately look at the way messam is evolving as a player, his obvious weak points are definately on the improve. Vito is another Beast all together, he is a quality player without many weak points to his game, unlike the Messam of a couple of years ago Vito has never been prone to mistakes, he plays that type of game. But Messam also has that extra Gear to his game, that X-Factor, the huge hits on defence that turn a game, the turn of speed that take the oposition by suprise and the hitups that send oposition players flying back, it's what makes him such an exciting player but the mistakes in his game let him down. Now he's as accurate as most top players his game is at a new level.

Leonard has kind of been starved of chances at internationl level in the last couple years, he basically got one good chance last year and just when he started to get into the game and made some inroads he got a massive kick to the head and had to come off!

As far as halfback goes right now Weepu is the man, weepu should be being groomed to take on the bulk of the workload in the big games come world cup time. He has such a cool head in big games and he's so good at organizing players in and around the forward pack which is critical. Focus for him is to stay on top of his fitness because that's his weakness. It's really al about who is going to be there with him, Cowan has the experience but he's just been lukewarm at best for the last couple of years. I think either Cowan needs to find his mojo or there will be a changinf of the guard on the EOY tour.