NZ article attacking Celtic nations

[cyRil]

Isn't Vainikolo Tongan?
Seriously though, this topic is so boring guys, I used to be quite vocal on this subject but it's been done to death now.
But just to cover Wales' back - Toby Faletau moved here when he was 7 and had every intention of always playing for Wales. When you see him answer the question about whether he fancied his chances in the Welsh squad after a Dragons match thus; 'Weeell, I'll just play for these yur now, then see what happens ini.' I think you can say he's Welsh

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But Vainikolo isn't in the World Cup squad :S


Same goes for Manu Tuilagi - has a lovely* east midlands accent




*note: East Midlands accents are anything but lovely...

 

[smartcooky]

it should be noted that many island players are poached by nz

Utter rubbish. Sivivatu is the ONLY player in recent times who has come to New Zealand as anything other than a pre-schooler or primary school child in tow behind their parents. Sivivatu came on a scholarship.

The "New Zealand Poaches Pacific Islanders" myth is just that...a myth; perpetrated mostly by British gutter media sports jocks like Eddie Butler and Stephen Jones.

I will re-post here an article I wrote for another forum.

I gleaned much of this information from another poster in yet another (third) forum, checked it against the NZ Rugby Almanac 2010, and added some content, as well as adding some research from the NZ Rugby Museum website.

The result is this comprehensive study of Pacific Islander involvement on the All Blacks.

[TEXTAREA]The perception exists in the NH, particularly in Britain, that New Zealand "Cherry Picks" the best Pacific Islanders for themselves. This is a complete falsehood, perpetrated mostly by British Media (a bit rich coming from them, given the number of South Africans, Rhodesians and West Indians that have played cricket for England over the last 40 years).

The perpetration of this myth is fueled mostly by two pieces if fundamental ignorance.

1. Complete ignorance of New Zealand's demographics.
With the relatively recent influx of peoples of Middle and Far Eastern ethnicity into Britain and the more recent addition of Eastern Europeans from the old Iron Curtain countries, Britain is just beginning to experience something that has been going on in New Zealand for a lot longer.

There have been many decades of immigration from the Islands and we are now seeing fifth and six generation Fijians, Samoans and Tongans living in NZ. Pacific Island culture has significant influence in NZ not only in sport but in everyday life. There are Samoan and Tongan heritage members of Parliament, famous writers, actors, and film-makers, City and Regional councillors and other high-profile members of our society who trace their ancestors back to Samoa, Tonga, Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and so on.

There are in fact more Samoans living in New Zealand that there are in Samoa. Auckland has the largest urban Polynesian population in the world.

2. A brown-skinned man in a Black jersey must be a poached Pacific Islander.
Unless you live in New Zealand, you probably hear a "Pacific Islander" name and have no real idea which Island he comes from, but for the average Kiwi, its easy; tell me the name (if its not Anglicized) and I will tell you which Island he is ethnically descended from, without knowing anything about him or even seeing him. One of the best demonstrations of this is that I often hear Piri Weepu's name as a player we supposedly poached from the Pacific Islands, when in fact he was born in NZ..... and he's a Maori, not a Pacific Islander at all.

So let's narrow it down to the All Blacks.

In the 125+ year history of New Zealand Rugby there are in fact only four Pacific Island players who have played for the All Blacks and who did not go to school in NZ. They are:

Alama Iremia
John Schuster
Joeli Vidiri
Saimone Taumoepeau

There are a further four that came to NZ on school scholarships. They are:

Casey Laulala (Wesley College, Auckland)
Siti Sivivatu (Wesley College, Auckland)
Sisone Anasi (St Pauls High School, Hamilton)
Chris Masoe (Wanganui College)

Of the 1108 All Blacks, only 30 have been born in the Pacific Islands.

Here is the full list, when they played for the Blacks, their school (since 1970s) and what age (where known) that they came to NZ.

American Samoa
Jerome Kaino Came to NZ when he was 6 years old and attended St Kentigan's, Auckland
Frank Solomon 1931/32

Fiji
Bernie Fraser 1979/84 Grew up in NZ and went to Marist School in Auckland
Arthur Jennings 1967
Tabai Matson 1995/96 Grew up in NZ and went to Christ's College, Christchurch
Joe Rokocoko Came to NZ as a 5 year old and went to St Kentigan's, Auckland
Sitiveni Sivivatu Came to NZ at 15 and went to Wesley College, Auckland
David Solomon 1935/36
Joeli Vidiri 1998 Came to NZ as adult
Ron Williams 1988/89 Grew up in NZ and went to Westlake Boys, Auckland

Manu Samoa
Sosene Anesi 2005 Came to NZ on Scholarship to St Pauls, Hamilton
Olo Brown 1990/98 Came to NZ as child and went to Mt Albert Grammar, Auckland from 1981-85
Eroni Clarke 1992/98 Came to NZ at an early age and went to Henderson High School, Auck
Jerry Collins 2000/07 Came to NZ as a 4 year old and attended St Pat's College, Wton
Alama Ieremia 1994/2000 Came to NZ as an adult to attend Victoria University, Wellington
Casey Laulala 2004/06 Came to NZ on scholarship to Wesley College, Auckland
Chris Masoe 2005/07 Came to NZ on scholarship to Wanganui College
Mils Miliaina 2003 Came to live in Invercargill as a 2 year old
Jonny Schuster 1987/89 Came to NZ after secondary school
John Schwalger 2007 Came to NZ when he was a child and attended Bishop Viard College where he was head boy.
Rodney So'oialo 2002 Came to NZ as a 6 year old and attended Mana College, Wton
Isaia Toeava Came to NZ as a 7 year old and attended De La Salle College, Auckland
Inga Tuigamala Came to NZ when he was 4 years old attended Kelston Boys, Auckland

Tonga
Pita Alatini 1999/01Came to NZ as a child and attended Kings College, Dunedin
Walter Batty 1928/31
Sione Lauaki 2005/07 Came to NZ aged 7 and attended Kelston Boys, Auckland
Isitolo Maka 1998 raised in Auckland and had attended Sacred Heart College, Auckland
Charles Riechelman 1997 Part Tongan and born there but grew up in NZ and went to Auckland Grammar
Saimone Taumoepeau 2004 Came to NZ after leaving school
Osaiasi Vanisi 1990 Came to NZ as a child and grew up in Dunedin where he attended Kings High School

You might notice a name missing from this list, a famous one.... Jonah Lomu. The NZRU were constantly accused of poaching him from the Islands... in fact he was born in New Zealand.[/TEXTAREA]

After I posted this, an English poster posted this brilliant reply, which pretty much sums up why the British Media appear to be so obsessed with this issue.

[TEXTAREA]Because we live in a country where people who were born here and have lived here all their lives and call Pakistan "home".

Because we understand and accept it as normal for someone to call themselves a "French Canadian" or an "Afro Caribbean" or "French Ghanaian"

Because we see "brown" people with heavy "English" accents who have clearly lived here for a very long time wave Indian flags at an England v India cricket match.

So, we don't get it when a "brown" person born and bred in NZ sees himself as a New Zealander and has a national pride for NZ and a passion to play for his country.

We find it odd and we become suspicious.... [/TEXTAREA]

 

[JW.]

I never quite get this discussion, and what all the fuss is about. It's the persons choice to play for a country that they feel as there home. And that's how it should be. If a Pacific Islander is eligble to play for the bloody AB's and he feels NZ is his home, he should play for NZ, because he can learn a hell of alot more playing for or in NewZeeland than he could back there. Lets just support our team and play/watch rugby without trying to find an excuse why a certain team is better than us and then ending up in this discussion .

Post above shows the truth, and the myth is a typical media based excuse or fear for the AB's.

 

[big ginger 8]

The N.Z. press are funny. "The Celtic nations are killing pacific island rugby". They call Ireland, Wales and Scotland the Celtic nations which is true but then talk about Englands foreign players.

I agree N.Z. don't poach. But when was the last time they toured the islands?

Ireland went to Samoa and Tonga in the last decade.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

NZ doesn't tour the islands because the island nations earn more revenue from touring NZ. Most of the games played between the island nations and NZ in NZ are considered 'home' games for the pacific teams, and thus they reap the majorities of the profit. If these games were played in the islands gate takings would be significantly less, so they choose to have the games in NZ (this latest NZ Fiji test one of the few exceptions, as it was a Canterbury fundraiser), usually in places with large pacific populations.

 

[nickdnz]

The N.Z. press are funny. "The Celtic nations are killing pacific island rugby". They call Ireland, Wales and Scotland the Celtic nations which is true but then talk about Englands foreign players.

I agree N.Z. don't poach. But when was the last time they toured the islands?

Ireland went to Samoa and Tonga in the last decade.

Well they don't tour very often. Samoa and Fiji can often get a lot more support playing in New Zealand than out of it. For many Samoans in New Zealand, they feel that this RWC is basically a tornement on home soil. As mentioned earlier, New Zealand also provides many more players to PI nations, far more than any other. Fijian, Tongan and Samoan teams have also played more in New Zealand than any other nation outside the PNC, often sending "A" teams to play against regional XV sides. I don't think you'll find any tier 1 nations who have done more for the PI nations than Australia and New Zealand. Heck, up untill recently the New Zealand Maori and New Zealand "A", and Australia "A" would all play in the PI Cup (in Samoa/Tonga/Fiji).

 

[big ginger 8]

I know they provide more players. Was actually wondering the last time N.Z. toured. Don't think anyone is hindering development. It's a ridiculous article. Saying Wales are terrified of PI teams because of a few losses.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I hear more Samoa than east midlands, maybe in the middle

Faletau has a Welsh accent

I wouldn't say either of them are "strong" though, I think some people are exaggerating to make a point

I grew up in the midlands, and have interviewed Tuilagi - he's a Leicester lad

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

The N.Z. press are funny.

No probs with ya, but it's not the New Zealand press. This isn't really much of a story over here right now. It's a one-off or (if someone else has for some reason followed it up) a two-off article. Most sports media over here are talking about anything but this right now.

 

[big ginger 8]

Sorry probably shouldn't say anything when obviously I'm not a regular reader.

Kind of going on reputation. Have heard the press not the people are incredibly biased to the All Backs and give no one else credit. Can you confirm if this is true are is it simply tabloids are something?

 

[j-dawg]

If Islanders choose to play for another country then they should be well aware they will not be aloud to play for their home country after. Simple.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Sorry probably shouldn't say anything when obviously I'm not a regular reader.

Kind of going on reputation. Have heard the press not the people are incredibly biased to the All Backs and give no one else credit. Can you confirm if this is true are is it simply tabloids are something?

It's simply a case that most articles that get reported here from New Zealand journalists are the few that are sensationalist. There are probably a few hundred articles written on Rugby in New Zealand every week. Maybe 40-50 of them will be on what foreign nations are doing and honestly most I've read have said things like.

"The All Blacks have a strong team but will have to be wary".
"Who'll be the surprise threat to the All Blacks this year".
"Which Northern team are the AB's most going to have to watch out for this year".

After what has happened to the AB's in world cup years gone by, a lot of the journo's are being fairly realistic.

Sure, there'll be those who over-estimate our chances or trash talk our opposition, but not the majority and what nation doesn't have them? The british tabloids are fairly imaginative on their day too.

The biggest thing is that almost EVERY thing reported on TRF from NZ media is the stuff that'll get people's backs up if they are from North of the equator.

 

[staph.glorious]

Now, for the reason I beleieve this is a bad idea is pretty simple.

3). IRB has just built new rugby facilities for Samoa which are world class. Some of that money comes from Ireland, Wales and Scotland. The IRB is doing its part. Instead of a stupid rule change, what needs to happen is more money is given for development of the PI nations (as well as the Asian and American nations), and most importantly, give those countries more international fixtures with windows open for players in Europe. Half the reason why Fiji, Samoa and Tonga are not competitive outside World Cup years is due to clubs putting pressure on players not to play outside the club, which really interfares with their teams. This would not change if the eligability rule changed or not. If Fiji can't get Isa Nacewa, Sireli Bobo and Vilimoni Delasau to play for them in a RWC year, what makes them think that they could get Sivivatu playing for them if he's playing for Clermont?

This gets my support. I don't need to add to it.

However, on eligibility regulations, I have no problems in someone playing for two different nations on the basis that the minimum time of Residence is increased, which, in my mind, means at least 'doubled' (i.e. seventy two "consecutive months of Residence"). If one is so desperate to switch allegiances, and wishes to work through so many years of likely injury, varying form, and perhaps even battling past their peak, then let them have it. Who would begrudge another a healthy work ethic? Who could not forgive the determined mind for a mistake made as a twenty-one year old? Those archaic in mind, I would suggest. It's much better than eligibility-by-heritage, which could be nothing more than a drunken grandparent - what proud tradition!

 

[TNT88]

The article is a sensationalized peice of crap, it isn't even worth the time posting.

 

[Melhor Time]

Was actually wondering the last time N.Z. toured. Don't think anyone is hindering development.

For a test match New Zealand has never toured. NZ has played matches but never an actual international.

Freom the article.....

Scotland, Ireland and Wales are also acutely aware that if Samoa could be given organisational stability and an economic footing, they could become an instant contender - not necessarily capable of winning a World Cup but capable of pushing the big five close.

1. There are more Pacific Island internationals playing for Irish, Scottish and Welsh teams than there are in Super Rugby. Cardiff Blues have Taufa´ao Filise and Maama Molitika, Ospreys have George Stowers and Kahn Fotuali´i, Scarlets have Sione Timani and Deacon Manu, Connacht have Fetu´u Vanikolo and Henry Fa´afili, Leinster have Isa Nacewa and Edinburgh has Netani Talei. The largest Pacific Island city in the world, as correctly stated earlier in the thread is Auckland. Yet Auckaldn Super Rugby team, the Blues, have no Fijian, Samoan or Tongan international players. They do have Joe Rokocoko and Isaia Toeava who were born in Fiji and Samoa must, as children, moved to NZ. Certainly neither were poached. They balos have Jerome Kaino who is frm American Samoa which is not Samoa but rather a controlled area of the USA that is considered a territory but not USA proper. i.e. the same as Puerto Rico.

2. Big Five no longer exists. In the last five years Argentina was third in the RWC while Wales and Ireland have both been Grand Slam Winners.

3. Suggesting the solution is to hand down unwanted former internationals from another country is simply a poor suggestion. It will not be popular with fringe players. Those based in the Islands will be overlooked. Imagine ifJoe Rokocoko were to play for Fiji rather than a local produced player who went through the system before signing for a pro team, i.e. Timoci Nagusa. Rokocoko would be saying I want to play for Fiji because NZ won´t want me anylonger. Whether he is Fijian born or not he would be a mercenary. Thierry Dusautoir could play for the Cote d´Ivoire but.....

Should ex All Blacks like Jerry Collins be playing for Samoa? Absolutely not. RWC 1999 was a mess with the Samoan and Japanese sides packed with imports who used to play for other countries. One seuch example, ex-All Black Steve Bachop was flyhalf for Samoa and his brother, ex-All Black Graeme Bachop was scrumhalf for Japan.

 

[Thingimubob]

This is a very good point. My immediate thought is inconsistency. Im not hating on England Rugby Union whatsoever (beacuse of the example in the above quote) but on those that make these rules in particular.

All of those players did qualify on residency (4 years I think it is?), only one I disagree with is Hape who played for New Zealand Rugby League during this residency period.
Maybe they could raise the residency rules so it takes longer to qualify to play for a country?

 

[staph.glorious]

All of those players did qualify on residency (4 years I think it is?)

It is three years or, to lift from the document, "thirty six consecutive months of Residence".
Source: IRB

 

[nickdnz]

1. There are more Pacific Island internationals playing for Irish, Scottish and Welsh teams than there are in Super Rugby. Cardiff Blues have Taufa´ao Filise and Maama Molitika, Ospreys have George Stowers and Kahn Fotuali´i, Scarlets have Sione Timani and Deacon Manu, Connacht have Fetu´u Vanikolo and Henry Fa´afili, Leinster have Isa Nacewa and Edinburgh has Netani Talei. The largest Pacific Island city in the world, as correctly stated earlier in the thread is Auckland. Yet Auckaldn Super Rugby team, the Blues, have no Fijian, Samoan or Tongan international players. They do have Joe Rokocoko and Isaia Toeava who were born in Fiji and Samoa must, as children, moved to NZ. Certainly neither were poached. They balos have Jerome Kaino who is frm American Samoa which is not Samoa but rather a controlled area of the USA that is considered a territory but not USA proper. i.e. the same as Puerto Rico.

Well in Super Rugby that is correct. Most teams are only allowed so many forgin talent, so they are able to give the best spots for New Zealanders who want to be in the All Blacks. With that in mind, you're well off in saying that most PI players play in Europe over the ITM Cup, and even further off when talking about local club rugby. Of the players you have mentioned -

Taufa'ao Filise: Played with Bay of Plenty before Cardiff.
Kahn Fotuali'i: Is obviously still playing for Hawkes Bay and played in the recent Crusaders team. He hasn't played a game yet for the Osprays.
Deacon Manu: Played for Waikato and the Chiefs for 7 years before joining the Scarlets. He also has played for New Zealand Maori.
Fetu´u Vanikolo: Played for the Highlanders and Otago
Isa Nacewa: Played for many years with the Blues and Auckland. As you know, wanted to get his 1 test cap revoked to play for the All Blacks.
Netani Talei : Played for the Highlanders.

13 Samoans that were in the PNC competition currently play rugby in New Zealand, and a majority of the squad have played rugby in New Zealand in the past.

 

[Irishflanker]

I think it's a fairly stupid argument,with regards the poaching one, however the residency one should be the same as in football whereby you must attain the minimum residency rights to become a naturalized citizen of that country (i.e by law), which seems to be a more than fair way of deciding whether or not a player is eligible or not. Measures should also be made to ensure the likes of Isa Nacewa don't get tricked into playing for a nation again IMO.