Wales v South Africa - 23/11/2024 (17.40)

[Geordie]

And that's the most important! They'll have better games and better years in the future, just should learn from every hard situation and defeat

Yeah trust the lads. Give them time. One or two others might come through aswell...

 

[Saintjay]

During Gatland's first era, there were plenty of highly experienced Welsh sides that still lost or only narrowly beat other less experienced sides (including South Africa, such as in the 2018 and 2022 Summer victories). So that is a half-excuse at most. In fact, one problem has been not enough new players being slowly brought into the senior side for several years, so with all these retirements Wales have not really properly prepared.

I think Gatland must take some blame for that. He shafted Pivac with a squad that had a few years left on the clock and that is it.

It's very similar to what Fergie did with Man United.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just look at where the Boks were in 2016/2017. Shows it can be done.

Hmmm. Population and general appetite for rugby wouod make me doubt that. Long road for Wales.

 

[Geordie]

I get the sentiment and I don't want to kick Wales when they're down but it's going to take a lot longer than a year to get back to he standard of past Welsh teams, if they can even manage that.

They have some promising players but often they come in the same positions - for example, Morse looks great but are you going to drop Wainwright (often Wales best player and missed today) to give him game time?

Wales' age grade sides and the domestic game definition don't point to a bright future any time soon.

Of course it is but when you have a side with hardly any caps it's simply about building experience.

Wales rely on a side with lots of caps and experience...players who perform poorly wont be dropped and are allowed to rectify the problems and become better....one of the weird positives from a small player pool

 

[BPM]

I'm sceptical. I'm not a fan of Gatland, but I do get the logic of what he has been attempting to do. Whoever is coach is going to face the same limitations with the player pool and poor standard of the Welsh regions.

 

[AlRums]

No chance can we compete with Italy!

Not after the Italian display against NZ.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm sceptical. I'm not a fan of Gatland, but I do get the logic of what he has been attempting to do. Whoever is coach is going to face the same limitations with the player pool and poor standard of the Welsh regions.

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Georgia were actually the last full international side you beat

 

[Tooting Carmen]

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

Just a correction: Wales did beat Georgia in the World Cup last year. I think you meant "they beat us last time we played them at Cardiff". Otherwise, good points.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

It seems that Gatland's return has become a very extreme example of this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HappyEndingOverride

 

[General Melchett]

I think Gatland must take some blame for that. He shafted Pivac with a squad that had a few years left on the clock and that is it.

It's very similar to what Fergie did with Man United.

Not sure I'd draw the same comparison. Fergie rebuilt the Man U squad 4-5 times during his time there and winning the league with a declining squad in his last season was one of his greatest achievements. Is it his fault he decided to retire from the game when he did? The club messed up by allowing David Gill to leave at the same time when they should have asked him to stay and oversee Moyes first season rather have a wet behind the ears CEO in Ed Woodward take over at the same time.

Talking of Man U, I watched Ruben Amorim's first presser and it was interesting when he said that Mourinho was the right coach at the right time for Chelsea and that he being a young coach himself is the right coach for the current group of Man U players because he can relate to them more. Gatland's win record can't be disputed but I think he was better suited to a different era. He was great at getting the absolute maximum out of experienced test match animals but I'm just not sure his hairdryer treatment will work as well on modern inexperienced players especially in the absence of on pitch leaders like AWJ.

 

[BPM]

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

I agree. I'm not saying Gatland is getting the most out of the players available. The point was more that replacing him is unlikely to drastically change things.

If Borthwick were to be replaced, an incoming coach could pick a considerably different squad including a good number of players who aren't currently being selected (or not getting any game time). Whoever replaces Gatland won't have that opportunity.

Jarrod Evans would be a significant upgrade on Costelow, but outside of that, the new coach would have to wring every bit out of broadly the same players Gatland is already picking.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I agree. I'm not saying Gatland is getting the most out of the players available. The point was more that replacing him is unlikely to drastically change things.

If Borthwick were to be replaced, an incoming coach could pick a considerably different squad including a good number of players who aren't currently being selected (or not getting any game time). Whoever replaces Gatland won't have that opportunity.

Jarrod Evans would be a significant upgrade on Costelow, but outside of that, the new coach would have to wring every bit out of broadly the same players Gatland is already picking.

Don't get me started on Jarrod Evans. I would say Ioan Lloyd as well (Pat Lam would probably utilise him) but yeah, I take your point, on the whole, you're not looking at a dozen or so players (or as you rightly point out in Englands case you could pick an entirely different matchday 23 ) or anything.

I agree with the general gist of what your saying and while I agree you're not going to see any new coach come in and turn us into a top 4 team but I think we can significantly improve with the right hire. We're what, 12th in the world at the moment? I think the right coach can get us in the mix for the top 8.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well I think we can all agree that the roof performed amazingly and had a bright future ahead.

 

[BPM]

Who do you have that is good enough but either inured or not selected?

Outside of Jarrod Evans, I can only think of Jenkins, Grady and Lloyd. Grace might be, but given he's barely featured for Bath yet, no-one really knows. Morse looks like he has loads of potential, but not to the extent that he's likely to replace Wainwright, Morgan or Reffell. Maybe good for bench impact?

I'm not sure Johnny or Kieran Williams are good enough. Same goes for Fender. We have a couple of young Welsh prospects at Quins in Bradley and Green who look good but are nowhere near ready.

I'm probably missed a bunch of players and for complete clarity, I'm asking with positive intent here - not trying to put the boot in.

 

[dullonien]

There are other players available, whether they would be upgrades on the current bunch I don't know, but in some cases they certainly would.

Henry Thomas didn't feature in any matchday squad, yet most fan teams I saw selected before the SA game had him starting at tighthead. Look at what happened to Griffin! Griffin has been a positive for Wales over the last year, but yesterday was a step too far, and it seemed everyone but Gatland could see that.

Rhys Carre would offer some significant ball carrying oomph that we are missing in the pack. He has his weaknesses in the set piece, so he might not be the answer, but Saracens see enough in him.

Literally any other hooker would be an upgrade on Elias! His lineout throwing has cost us on so many occasions. Argentine comes to mind in the WC QF. His continued selection on the bench is the very definition of insanity.

I was hoping Rowlands was going to add some grunt in the second row, but he's been very, very poor this autumn. He should not have started v SA after him performances v Fiji and Aus. Beard is garbage outside of the maul, and Tshiunza really hasn't progressed at all. We're lacking big, powerful second rows who can impact a game, but when fit Fender needs to be tried. I'd have Rhys Davies and James Ratti ahead of those currently in the squad. Jenkins of course when he returns.

There's a few backrow players that could be looked at to offer impact off the bench that I just don't think Reffell offers. Basham and Deaves were deserving of a squad place imo (probably one or the other, not both). Morgan Morris should at least be given a shot at 8, he may prove to be too small (how many years did Gats say the same thing about Navidi?), but he's a more natural 8 than Plumtree. Mcenzy Martin should come back into the reckoning at some point. Morse could be a revelation if given an opportunity.

At 9, Reuben Morgan Williams has been rhe form 9 for a while in Wales. Why is he being ignored?

There's a raft of 10's who should be selected ahead of Costellow at the moment. Jarrod Evans, Ioan Lloyd, Dan Edwards and possibly Sheedy, although his defense and goal kicking this season are real worries. Continuously picking a player so lacking in confidence just isn't fair!

Again, there are other options at centre. Some might be sideways options, rather rhan definite upgrades, but Kieran Williams and Johnny Williams would offer more direct running options. Joe Hawkins should be available again soon by all accounts.

There aren't too many options in the back 3, but a few injured options like Cabango, Giles and Grady will be back. Iwan Stephens has looked good. I still pray every night that Grace can stay fit. Rogers at fullback? How about O'Brien at Dragons, offers a huge boot that none of the other options have etc.

 

[dirty harry]

Who do you have that is good enough but either inured or not selected?

Outside of Jarrod Evans, I can only think of Jenkins, Grady and Lloyd. Grace might be, but given he's barely featured for Bath yet, no-one really knows. Morse looks like he has loads of potential, but not to the extent that he's likely to replace Wainwright, Morgan or Reffell. Maybe good for bench impact?

I'm not sure Johnny or Kieran Williams are good enough. Same goes for Fender. We have a couple of young Welsh prospects at Quins in Bradley and Green who look good but are nowhere near ready.

I'm probably missed a bunch of players and for complete clarity, I'm asking with positive intent here - not trying to put the boot in.

So, if I were made wales coach my first priority would be to convince Francis to return. Griffin is young, but being rag dolled in the scrum isn't going to develop him. He needs to play rugby first, then step up. Henry Thomas is a better shout currently, as is Assirati.

Elias needs to be culled, came off the bench to lose 4 LOs in a row last week, first 2 this week, and most were in good attacking positions! Belcher has been over looked despite being Cardiffs first choice, and player of the season for 2 years, Lloyd isn't quite ready.

Thomas is the incumbent obviously, I'd open talks with Rhys Carre, in a team lacking so much power and carrying ability he is heads and shoulders above any other welsh tight 5! Domachowski is sold, he needs to kick on.

Beard, Rowlands look over the hill sadly, but are competitive. Wales lineout nu.bers when he's on the park compared to not are terrifyingly reliant on him. Tshiunza, Jenkins and Teddy William's all have potential, they need integrated, not being relied on.

Back row is difficult, Wainright is standout. Falatau is not returning let's be honest, I don't care what he says in the sauna lol. Reffell and Morgan look like they can handle INT rugby at least, but that a slight row, Plumtree is physical but And Powell dumb, Botham isn't up to it. Once again, Thomas Young at Cardiff has been overlooked despite being the standout 7 in Wales for seasons, he's injured regularly but to not get the chance to step up is wild to me.
Martin, Mann and a few others all looked so flawed as pro rugby players, Morse looks like he's got potential.

9 is a problem, Tomos is nailed on, but Hardy, Bevan, and other candidates look 21 just breaking in despite being much much older. Bevan is an inexperienced pro at 24!

10 is a bigger problem, Costelow showed some potential, but that seems to have been Alex Cuthberted out of him, and now he's a shell of a player, hands shaking when kicking the ball, rag dolled attack and defence. He needs a season of club rugby. Lloyd has been abysmal in red, literally coming off the bench to give games away. Why he signed for Llanelli i will never know, theyve ruined him as everyonenknew they would.
Sheedy, Evans, both flawed.

Realistically Edward's is coming along nicely, not too much pressure, and not the finished article but he's showing glimpses. Hawkins has been touted as a 10, if he signs for Cardiff I think he will be used there, certainly wherever he wants to play Ben Thomas will get out of the way. Thomas in Aus last summer was not even u20s standard at 10 (look at his restarts last few games).

12 we actually have options, Llewellyn has showed enough recently to show he can step up, 12 may well be for him. Johnny William's has all the physical attributes, except a Plumtree level of discipline. Ben Thomas isn't up to it, he's a club player! People said Grady was poor for Cardiff at 12 recently, but I disagree, he's always poor for Cardiff, at least at 12 he carried hard yards, and his mistakes were limited. I would consider him there again.

13 like 10 is a real problem, I don't see anyone outside of Eddie who could play there, k William's, Llewellyn, Grady all struggle there. I'd like to see Ben Thomas given a go at 13 at club level, ball playing kicking option, he's not slow, he just needs to learn defencive systems maybe.

Back 3, well take your pick from the current and recent crop of U20s, no speed, physicality, ball playing ability, defencive nous or aggression.

I think Dyer is nailed on, at least he's quick. LRZ has abandoned us for fame and fortune, Liam William's isn't an option...

Murray, Winnet, Hathaway are all too small for int rugby, Winnet especially I see retiring at 23/24 due to injuries, he is mullered in every contact, and the locals in Cardiff have started to refer to him as a pretzel, because he gets twisted up so much. He loses posession nearly 75% of the time (directly and indirectly). It's not his fault, at 21 he is technically wonderful, he just doesn't have the physical capabilites for pro rugby yet. Continuing with him at int level will ruin his career.

So, if we don't have gas outside of Dyer, then maybe Grady, Llewellyn, (I liked Owen Lane mind) are options?!

The player pool is poor, it's not as young as people are claiming, Bevan and Costelow 24, Ben Thomas 27 and a 3rd of the squad were the wrong side of 30.

I have defended Gatland hard, 2023 he had a good season recovering from a mess, but after yesterday, 6 mins in 12-0 down it's clear the poor players we have aren't even committed (Morgan, Dyer aside). I'm sure at one point I saw Assirati step out of a tackle on purpose! So Gatland, but mostly his coaching team have to go! We need new ideas, new impetus, but mostly a fresh start.

The player pool is a failure of the WRU, as is the regions debacle, AND the women's game debacle, as is the financial situation, as is the culture of welsh community rugby, and lack of junior players (I want them gone too).

I will never understand why anyone would allow Rob Howley back into Welsh rugby, I mean he's been nothing but a coat hanger, AND a liability to welsh rugby over the years, hime returning burnt bridges for Gatland.

As a final word though, my very first action as coach would be to discuss options with Dai Young and Sean Edward's, the 3 of us would make welsh rugby great again!

 

[dirty harry]

There are other players available, whether they would be upgrades on the current bunch I don't know, but in some cases they certainly would.

Henry Thomas didn't feature in any matchday squad, yet most fan teams I saw selected before the SA game had him starting at tighthead. Look at what happened to Griffin! Griffin has been a positive for Wales over the last year, but yesterday was a step too far, and it seemed everyone but Gatland could see that.

Rhys Carre would offer some significant ball carrying oomph that we are missing in the pack. He has his weaknesses in the set piece, so he might not be the answer, but Saracens see enough in him.

Literally any other hooker would be an upgrade on Elias! His lineout throwing has cost us on so many occasions. Argentine comes to mind in the WC QF. His continued selection on the bench is the very definition of insanity.

I was hoping Rowlands was going to add some grunt in the second row, but he's been very, very poor this autumn. He should not have started v SA after him performances v Fiji and Aus. Beard is garbage outside of the maul, and Tshiunza really hasn't progressed at all. We're lacking big, powerful second rows who can impact a game, but when fit Fender needs to be tried. I'd have Rhys Davies and James Ratti ahead of those currently in the squad. Jenkins of course when he returns.

There's a few backrow players that could be looked at to offer impact off the bench that I just don't think Reffell offers. Basham and Deaves were deserving of a squad place imo (probably one or the other, not both). Morgan Morris should at least be given a shot at 8, he may prove to be too small (how many years did Gats say the same thing about Navidi?), but he's a more natural 8 than Plumtree. Mcenzy Martin should come back into the reckoning at some point. Morse could be a revelation if given an opportunity.

At 9, Reuben Morgan Williams has been rhe form 9 for a while in Wales. Why is he being ignored?

There's a raft of 10's who should be selected ahead of Costellow at the moment. Jarrod Evans, Ioan Lloyd, Dan Edwards and possibly Sheedy, although his defense and goal kicking this season are real worries. Continuously picking a player so lacking in confidence just isn't fair!

Again, there are other options at centre. Some might be sideways options, rather rhan definite upgrades, but Kieran Williams and Johnny Williams would offer more direct running options. Joe Hawkins should be available again soon by all accounts.

There aren't too many options in the back 3, but a few injured options like Cabango, Giles and Grady will be back. Iwan Stephens has looked good. I still pray every night that Grace can stay fit. Rogers at fullback? How about O'Brien at Dragons, offers a huge boot that none of the other options have etc.

Morgan William's at 9 is a great shout I over looked him, as is Fender.

 

[dullonien]

So a very different 23, which could offer more balance, ignoring current injuries and/or unavailables:

01 Rhys Carre
02 Dewi Lake
03 Henry Thomas / Tomos Francis
04 Dafydd Jenkins
05 James Fender / Rhys Davies
06 Aaron Wainwright
07 Jack Morgan
08 Morgan Morse (**** it, see how he goes)

09 Tomos Williams
10 Jarrod Evans
11 Regan Grace
12 Eddie James
13 Max Llewellyn
14 Mason Grady
15 Tom Rogers

16 Brody Coughlan
17 Nicky Smith
18 Leon Brown
19 James Ratti
20 Taine Basham
21 Reuben Morgan Williams
22 Joe Hawkins
23 Angus O'Brien

With all things being the same, would this side perform better? Possibly not. But along with a change of coaches (not just Gatland) I think there's more balance and impact in a side like that. Likes of Winnett, Martin, Mann, Dan Edwards etc. may come back into the recogning after they gain some more experience at regional level.