Wales v South Africa - 23/11/2024 (17.40)

[Geordie]

And that's the most important! They'll have better games and better years in the future, just should learn from every hard situation and defeat

Yeah trust the lads. Give them time. One or two others might come through aswell...

 

[Saintjay]

During Gatland's first era, there were plenty of highly experienced Welsh sides that still lost or only narrowly beat other less experienced sides (including South Africa, such as in the 2018 and 2022 Summer victories). So that is a half-excuse at most. In fact, one problem has been not enough new players being slowly brought into the senior side for several years, so with all these retirements Wales have not really properly prepared.

I think Gatland must take some blame for that. He shafted Pivac with a squad that had a few years left on the clock and that is it.

It's very similar to what Fergie did with Man United.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Just look at where the Boks were in 2016/2017. Shows it can be done.

Hmmm. Population and general appetite for rugby wouod make me doubt that. Long road for Wales.

 

[Geordie]

I get the sentiment and I don't want to kick Wales when they're down but it's going to take a lot longer than a year to get back to he standard of past Welsh teams, if they can even manage that.

They have some promising players but often they come in the same positions - for example, Morse looks great but are you going to drop Wainwright (often Wales best player and missed today) to give him game time?

Wales' age grade sides and the domestic game definition don't point to a bright future any time soon.

Of course it is but when you have a side with hardly any caps it's simply about building experience.

Wales rely on a side with lots of caps and experience...players who perform poorly wont be dropped and are allowed to rectify the problems and become better....one of the weird positives from a small player pool

 

[BPM]

I'm sceptical. I'm not a fan of Gatland, but I do get the logic of what he has been attempting to do. Whoever is coach is going to face the same limitations with the player pool and poor standard of the Welsh regions.

 

[AlRums]

No chance can we compete with Italy!

Not after the Italian display against NZ.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I'm sceptical. I'm not a fan of Gatland, but I do get the logic of what he has been attempting to do. Whoever is coach is going to face the same limitations with the player pool and poor standard of the Welsh regions.

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Georgia were actually the last full international side you beat

 

[Tooting Carmen]

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

Just a correction: Wales did beat Georgia in the World Cup last year. I think you meant "they beat us last time we played them at Cardiff". Otherwise, good points.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

It seems that Gatland's return has become a very extreme example of this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HappyEndingOverride

 

[General Melchett]

I think Gatland must take some blame for that. He shafted Pivac with a squad that had a few years left on the clock and that is it.

It's very similar to what Fergie did with Man United.

Not sure I'd draw the same comparison. Fergie rebuilt the Man U squad 4-5 times during his time there and winning the league with a declining squad in his last season was one of his greatest achievements. Is it his fault he decided to retire from the game when he did? The club messed up by allowing David Gill to leave at the same time when they should have asked him to stay and oversee Moyes first season rather have a wet behind the ears CEO in Ed Woodward take over at the same time.

Talking of Man U, I watched Ruben Amorim's first presser and it was interesting when he said that Mourinho was the right coach at the right time for Chelsea and that he being a young coach himself is the right coach for the current group of Man U players because he can relate to them more. Gatland's win record can't be disputed but I think he was better suited to a different era. He was great at getting the absolute maximum out of experienced test match animals but I'm just not sure his hairdryer treatment will work as well on modern inexperienced players especially in the absence of on pitch leaders like AWJ.

 

[BPM]

There's bad and then there's, well, us. The thing is, yeah, the regions have been **** and everything but looking at last year and this season its not like we're a million miles off the Scottish or Italian sides (I know Glasgow won last year obviously) Ospreys finished 8th (4 points behind Benneton) and above Edinburgh and this season, albeit early days obviously, scarlets and Cardiff not doing too bad

At the moment, internationally, it's not really marrying up, as average as the regions are at test level we look third tier. Italy look a level above us you wouldn't back us to beat Georgia either (naturally seeing as they beat us last time we played)

While Gatland isn't the main problem and no doubt any new coach faces the same challenges but I think it's undeniable he's not getting the most out of what he has available to him. Unfortunately we can't burn the WRU down but we can fix the coaching problem and sack Gatland and have a fresh slate going into the 6N.

I agree. I'm not saying Gatland is getting the most out of the players available. The point was more that replacing him is unlikely to drastically change things.

If Borthwick were to be replaced, an incoming coach could pick a considerably different squad including a good number of players who aren't currently being selected (or not getting any game time). Whoever replaces Gatland won't have that opportunity.

Jarrod Evans would be a significant upgrade on Costelow, but outside of that, the new coach would have to wring every bit out of broadly the same players Gatland is already picking.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I agree. I'm not saying Gatland is getting the most out of the players available. The point was more that replacing him is unlikely to drastically change things.

If Borthwick were to be replaced, an incoming coach could pick a considerably different squad including a good number of players who aren't currently being selected (or not getting any game time). Whoever replaces Gatland won't have that opportunity.

Jarrod Evans would be a significant upgrade on Costelow, but outside of that, the new coach would have to wring every bit out of broadly the same players Gatland is already picking.

Don't get me started on Jarrod Evans. I would say Ioan Lloyd as well (Pat Lam would probably utilise him) but yeah, I take your point, on the whole, you're not looking at a dozen or so players (or as you rightly point out in Englands case you could pick an entirely different matchday 23 ) or anything.

I agree with the general gist of what your saying and while I agree you're not going to see any new coach come in and turn us into a top 4 team but I think we can significantly improve with the right hire. We're what, 12th in the world at the moment? I think the right coach can get us in the mix for the top 8.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well I think we can all agree that the roof performed amazingly and had a bright future ahead.

 

[BPM]

Who do you have that is good enough but either inured or not selected?

Outside of Jarrod Evans, I can only think of Jenkins, Grady and Lloyd. Grace might be, but given he's barely featured for Bath yet, no-one really knows. Morse looks like he has loads of potential, but not to the extent that he's likely to replace Wainwright, Morgan or Reffell. Maybe good for bench impact?

I'm not sure Johnny or Kieran Williams are good enough. Same goes for Fender. We have a couple of young Welsh prospects at Quins in Bradley and Green who look good but are nowhere near ready.

I'm probably missed a bunch of players and for complete clarity, I'm asking with positive intent here - not trying to put the boot in.