(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[Peat]

Not if Ireland had played like England, Ford would be mussed less in the English set up than about three second rows, Dan Cole, Vunipola, both centres and Mike Brown. He's against Johnny Sexton who was the best player in the deciding match of the last Lions tour and is frankly a superior player and leader. Russell and Jackson are tearing it up in European club rugby while Ford is not.

But Ford is tearing it up in international rugby where Russell and Jackson are not...

*le shrug*

edit: To be fair, beating South Africa and Australia is something good, even if there's not enough results for tearing it up. Poor Finn Russell with Scotland. Its almost like poor George Ford with Bath... *end edit*

Since 2014 in big games (until end summer 2016), England's average points total in games where Farrell played 10 is 2.25 less than their opposition. When Ford played, England on average scored 7.66 points more than the opposition. We're talking a swing of nearly 10 points here. I know there's a lot of factors involved here but that's a really big coincidence if Ford wouldn't be missed that much.

And we've done without Vunipola and won, we've done without all of the locks and won, we've won without Farrell and we've won without Joseph, and the one time we tried doing without Ford we got ourselves in the biggest hole of Eddie's reign to date. I know there's a lot of factors involved here as well but it really doesn't point to a dispensable player. The objective albeit crude stats all point directly away from that conclusion.

I mean, comparing between countries, that's a difficult one and I think I've said all that needs to be said at the moment... but in terms of within the England set up, pretty much everything is pointing to "you're wrong".

p.s. Okay, one tiny bit on comparisons between countries. Any comparison of Ford and Jackson that doesn't mention the phase 'tactical kicking' is missing a pretty important aspect of fly-half play that's really in Ford's favour, even allowing for Paddy's recent step forwards here.

p.p.s. Scotland score more with Finn Russell than Wales do with Dan Biggar. Looking at the rest of the teams, that really shouldn't be happening. Plz say no to Dan Biggar.

 

[munstermuffin]

Done much lately?
Other than start at 10 in an unbeaten year for England and lead his club to (currently) 3rd?

I like Russell but don't understand the sudden clamour for him to go.

10. Sexton 12/22 Farrell/Henshaw (flip a coin), Ford in the extended squad, Russell next in line in case of injury. Big fan of Biggar but he needs a big 6N to be in the mix.

Fair point but here's my views.
Obviously I'm not seeing a lot of Bath in AP. But league isn't really a marker. It like Pro12 in a lot of people's eyes. In Europe Ford hasn't done much although he's not in top tier.

Regarding England I accept it in 1 way but in another sense was there many serious tests.

On Russell the clamour is for recent form.
I'm not saying your wrong it just view from another side. As I said I know Ford is a fine player and I'm not swayed either way

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Comparing the pro12 to the prem is an insult, tbf.
Teams don't care about the pro12, it's just there to get players ready for European and international rugby.

 

[Saint4805]

Ford has the capability but we don't know which Ford will turn up, particularly on the international stage which is far from ideal when you're looking for test match animals or as near to as possible.

I've been fairly objective and concede that only Hogg (and Nel if he outperforms Furlong at the 6N) have a chance of making the test 15 (not even convinced Gatland will leave out 1/2P) but as things stand Ford doesn't make the plane for me. On current form I would have Sexton, Russell and Farrell as cover. I feel a bit sorry for Paddy Jackson who has been in great form in the Pro12 but most likely won't get the same 6N audition as the other international 10's.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Ford has the capability but we don't know which Ford will turn up, particularly on the international stage which is far from ideal when you're looking for test match animals or as near to as possible.

I've been fairly objective and concede that only Hogg (and Nel if he outperforms Furlong at the 6N) have a chance of making the test 15 (not even convinced Gatland will leave out 1/2P) but as things stand Ford doesn't make the plane for me. On current form I would have Sexton, Russell and Farrell as cover. I feel a bit sorry for Paddy Jackson who has been in great form in the Pro12 but most likely won't get the same 6N audition as the other international 10's.

Ford has been consistent at rest level. Hasn't had a bad game if we ignore the place kicking. Sexton has had plenty.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford has the capability but we don't know which Ford will turn up, particularly on the international stage which is far from ideal when you're looking for test match animals or as near to as possible.

I've been fairly objective and concede that only Hogg (and Nel if he outperforms Furlong at the 6N) have a chance of making the test 15 (not even convinced Gatland will leave out 1/2P) but as things stand Ford doesn't make the plane for me. On current form I would have Sexton, Russell and Farrell as cover. I feel a bit sorry for Paddy Jackson who has been in great form in the Pro12 but most likely won't get the same 6N audition as the other international 10's.

I just find it bizarre how the 10 of a team who have achieved what England have can be so readily overlooked in favour of what some players have done at club level. Think about it, England have operated with different players in every other position on the pitch and performed to a similar level but when Ford hasn't been there, the standard has dropped massively and yet he gets no credit at all for England's performances.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Comparing the pro12 to the prem is an insult, tbf.
Teams don't care about the pro12, it's just there to get players ready for European and international rugby.

100% this.

It is to Europe what the A league is to the prem.

 

[Which Tyler]

Obviously I'm not seeing a lot of Bath in AP. But league isn't really a marker. It like Pro12 in a lot of people's eyes. In Europe Ford hasn't done much although he's not in top tier.

Now bear in mind that I don't think Gatland will take Ford regardless - the coach most synonymous with size over skill is not about to take the smaller player to NZ and voluntarily rip up his only game-plan to do so. Even were I selecting, I'd start Sexton with Ford on the bench.

However - you haven't seen him in the AP, and obviously haven't seen him in Europe; and write-off his unbeaten year with England and claim that he hasn't done much.
Without Ford: Cardiff 28 - 3 Bath
With Ford, 5 days later: Bath 38 - 3 Cardiff

Ford has the capability but we don't know which Ford will turn up, particularly on the international stage which is far from ideal when you're looking for test match animals or as near to as possible.

Again, spoken as someone who hasn't actually watched Ford playing rugby. Ford is not Hodgson, he is not the French team; he is not inconsistent in his playing of rugby - only with his kicking from tee. He has days of trying too much to turn things around when his entire team is getting humped and no FH can make a difference; and some days he even succeeds in doing so; but that does not make him inconsistent or worse than any other option. People just assume that because he has a bad day from the kicking tee that he must be playing badly; which simply isn't true.

 

[munstermuffin]

Comparing the pro12 to the prem is an insult, tbf.
Teams don't care about the pro12, it's just there to get players ready for European and international rugby.

Being honest I'd disagree. And argue standard is not much different. I think Prem thinks it's better than it is.

 

[munstermuffin]

Now bear in mind that I don't think Gatland will take Ford regardless - the coach most synonymous with size over skill is not about to take the smaller player to NZ and voluntarily rip up his only game-plan to do so. Even were I selecting, I'd start Sexton with Ford on the bench.

However - you haven't seen him in the AP, and obviously haven't seen him in Europe; and write-off his unbeaten year with England and claim that he hasn't done much.
Without Ford: Cardiff 28 - 3 Bath
With Ford, 5 days later: Bath 38 - 3 Cardiff

Again, spoken as someone who hasn't actually watched Ford playing rugby. Ford is not Hodgson, he is not the French team; he is not inconsistent in his playing of rugby - only with his kicking from tee. He has days of trying too much to turn things around when his entire team is getting humped and no FH can make a difference; and some days he even succeeds in doing so; but that does not make him inconsistent or worse than any other option. People just assume that because he has a bad day from the kicking tee that he must be playing badly; which simply isn't true.

Admittedly I've not seen him much in Bath colours. But for England in Autumn he was shaky at times as there was calls for Farrell to be 10.
I've never said he is a poor player either just he isn't clear of others but still level

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Now bear in mind that I don't think Gatland will take Ford regardless - the coach most synonymous with size over skill is not about to take the smaller player to NZ and voluntarily rip up his only game-plan to do so. Even were I selecting, I'd start Sexton with Ford on the bench.

However - you haven't seen him in the AP, and obviously haven't seen him in Europe; and write-off his unbeaten year with England and claim that he hasn't done much.
Without Ford: Cardiff 28 - 3 Bath
With Ford, 5 days later: Bath 38 - 3 Cardiff

Again, spoken as someone who hasn't actually watched Ford playing rugby. Ford is not Hodgson, he is not the French team; he is not inconsistent in his playing of rugby - only with his kicking from tee. He has days of trying too much to turn things around when his entire team is getting humped and no FH can make a difference; and some days he even succeeds in doing so; but that does not make him inconsistent or worse than any other option. People just assume that because he has a bad day from the kicking tee that he must be playing badly; which simply isn't true.

LOL that Bath and Cardiff games is stretching it a bit don't you think.
You also brought in.
Auterac
Attwood
Louw
Faletau
Fotuali'I
Ford
Joseph

And it was only in the challenge cup.

 

[Saint4805]

Now bear in mind that I don't think Gatland will take Ford regardless - the coach most synonymous with size over skill is not about to take the smaller player to NZ and voluntarily rip up his only game-plan to do so. Even were I selecting, I'd start Sexton with Ford on the bench.

However - you haven't seen him in the AP, and obviously haven't seen him in Europe; and write-off his unbeaten year with England and claim that he hasn't done much.
Without Ford: Cardiff 28 - 3 Bath
With Ford, 5 days later: Bath 38 - 3 Cardiff

Again, spoken as someone who hasn't actually watched Ford playing rugby. Ford is not Hodgson, he is not the French team; he is not inconsistent in his playing of rugby - only with his kicking from tee. He has days of trying too much to turn things around when his entire team is getting humped and no FH can make a difference; and some days he even succeeds in doing so; but that does not make him inconsistent or worse than any other option. People just assume that because he has a bad day from the kicking tee that he must be playing badly; which simply isn't true.

I have never claimed to have watched him play that much for Bath but his performances for England have been patchy. The lack of recognition Finn Russell gets on this board pretty much confirms the same thing for those wearing Ford tinted specs. He gave an absolute master class in both games against Racing. Even the English commentators were tipping him to play fly half in the Lions midweek side if he continues his form.

 

[valley commando]

I have never claimed to have watched him play that much for Bath but his performances for England have been patchy. The lack of recognition Finn Russell gets on this board pretty much confirms the same thing for those wearing Ford tinted specs. He gave an absolute master class in both games against Racing. Even the English commentators were tipping him to play fly half in the Lions midweek side if he continues his form.

Russell is the form 10 at the moment, but this forum is populated with one eyed English fans there are 5 Fly halves better than the English pair with Russell playing best at the minute followed by 2 from Ireland and 2 from the Ospreys in no particular order. I think its safe to say that no 10s from England will be on the plane, unless he takes Cipriani as a utility back.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sam Davies can't even buy a start at 10 for his club, to suggest he should be going on a lions tour is an insult to 150yrs of history.

 

[ncurd]

Sam Davies can't even buy a start at 10 for his club, to suggest he should be going on a lions tour is an insult to 150yrs of history.

Especially over the starting fly half of the only undefeated national team of this year.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean let's look at it this way if he takes a touring squad of 45 and England win another Grand Slam (hard work but nowhere near out of realms of possibility right now). How many of the starting 15 won't make the plane? Possible whoever is playing 6 and 7 and possibly 1 of the wings. The rest of those 15 will be a shock if they dont go.

 

[Saint4805]

Ford getting the nod on the basis of England's win rate is ludicrous. May as well outsource the whole Lions tour to the RFU if that's the rationale. That win rate would've been the same with Sexton, Russell or even Jackson playing at 10 in that side.

Put it another way, if Ford had played for Ireland would they have got the grand slam? I think not.

 

[ncurd]

Ford getting the nod on the basis of England's win rate is ludicrous. May as well outsource the whole Lions tour to the RFU if that's the rationale. That win rate would've been the same with Sexton, Russell or even Jackson playing at 10 in that side.

Put it another way, if Ford had played for Ireland would they have got the grand slam? I think not.

So no credit to an undefeated year to the starting fly half who's only 20 mins not playing was an unmitigated disaster?

I'd actually be happy to say on that evidence had Ford not started in 6 nations England wouldn't have won the 6 nations. Or be undefeated.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Comparing the pro12 to the prem is an insult, tbf.
Teams don't care about the pro12, it's just there to get players ready for European and international rugby.

I think resting players now and then is balanced out by every side in the prem bar Wasps and Sarries being absolute dog **** Olyy. The top 8 in the pro 12 are a hell of a lot stronger, Saints are in the top half of the premiership and they're an embarrassment.

While its impressive going a season unbeaten it doesn't mean Ford has actually been good, RO'G did it with Ireland while being an absolute passenger at times and got dropped for the first time in years for the last game but you'd be wrong to say we could have done it without him, a whole host of 10's could have done it with England this year. (Not necessarily Farrell who's best at 12)

Considering Farrell flies I'd put Sexton and Russell on the plane and tell the form guy between Ford and Jackson to have a bag half packed in case someone breaks.

- - - Updated - - -

So no credit to an undefeated year to the starting fly half who's only 20 mins not playing was an unmitigated disaster?

I'd actually be happy to say on that evidence had Ford not started in 6 nations England wouldn't have won the 6 nations. Or be undefeated.

So Ford should be praised more because England having no other international class 10's? On that logic RO'G was as good as Dan Carter for years because they were equally undroppable, he was as important to Ireland as Dan Carter was to NZ but there was a small enough gulf in class there!

 

[Saint4805]

It's a big decision for Gatland because it wouldn't surprise me if Sexton doesn't finish the tour, either through injuring himself or sinister play from one of the opposing sides looking to do a number on him. With that in mind, the second choice 10 has to be able to handle the occasion. Russell is widely known to relish the big games.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

May as well outsource the whole Lions tour to the RFU if that's the rationale.

Wed have a better chance of getting a win, tbf