(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

[valley commando]

Sam Davies can't even buy a start at 10 for his club, to suggest he should be going on a lions tour is an insult to 150yrs of history.

He is better than both your ****e 10 options, Mr Wind Up

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Especially over the starting fly half of the only undefeated national team of this year.

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I mean let's look at it this way if he takes a touring squad of 45 and England win another Grand Slam (hard work but nowhere near out of realms of possibility right now). How many of the starting 15 won't make the plane? Possible whoever is playing 6 and 7 and possibly 1 of the wings. The rest of those 15 will be a shock if they dont go.

You are a joke

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The Welsh Rugby Podcast: If Hartley was Samoan he'd be banned for 30 weeks and Keelan Giles could be Wales' spark

A reason why Hartley shouldn't go and why Giles should.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

He is better than both your ****e 10 options, Mr Wind Up

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You are a joke

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The Welsh Rugby Podcast: If Hartley was Samoan he'd be banned for 30 weeks and Keelan Giles could be Wales' spark

A reason why Hartley shouldn't go and why Giles should.

Andy Goode is better than Sam Davies, retired Stephen Jones is better than Sam Davies, hell my flyhalf mate Dan is better Sam Davies.

Oh wait i forgot Sam Davies is Welsh, so he must be a rugby god then. Just like all those other world class players Wales has. Like.....errr. None they are all average joes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He is better than both your ****e 10 options, Mr Wind Up.

Yet ours have more wins over aus in the last 12 months than Wales in the last....30? 40? years?
And Farrell has more wins over NZ than Wales in.....60?

 

[valley commando]

Andy Goode is better than Sam Davies, retired Stephen Jones is better than Sam Davies, hell my flyhalf mate Dan is better Sam Davies.

Oh wait i forgot Sam Davies is Welsh, so he must be a rugby god then. Just like all those other world class players Wales has. Like.....errr. None they are all average joes.

You are an idiot

 

[ncurd]

Yet ours have more wins over aus in the last 12 months than Wales in the last....30? 40? years?
And Farrell has more wins over NZ than Wales in.....60?

I've gotten to point of ignoring all three on this topic a winning team has nothing to do with the fly half according to them.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Freddie burns is better than Sam Davies.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford getting the nod on the basis of England's win rate is ludicrous. May as well outsource the whole Lions tour to the RFU if that's the rationale. That win rate would've been the same with Sexton, Russell or even Jackson playing at 10 in that side.

Put it another way, if Ford had played for Ireland would they have got the grand slam? I think not.

No, Ford getting no credit for England wins is ludicrous. He has directly created a number of the tries England scored and, as has been said, we've played many games without players in literally every other position and done ok but when we replace 10, things go downhill. If him playing is the common factor in England's successes then how can you discount him? If he is part of the team that has had the most successful year and won the most games of any NH side since the last Lions every year, how can anyone claim he isn't international quality? I don't think it's a case of us having rose tinted glasses, I think it's a case of people picking out select circumstances and using them to justify a negative view of a team or players whilst ignoring the good aspects.

 

[valley commando]

Yet ours have more wins over aus in the last 12 months than Wales in the last....30? 40? years?
And Farrell has more wins over NZ than Wales in.....60?

We are talking about individuals not teams you knob, Farrell is very average Ford is slightly above average, Sam Davies will be one of the best 10s ever if he keeps improving at the current rate, he is already better than Biggar who in turn is better than both English 10's.

 

[Peat]

Fair point but here's my views.
Obviously I'm not seeing a lot of Bath in AP. But league isn't really a marker. It like Pro12 in a lot of people's eyes. In Europe Ford hasn't done much although he's not in top tier.

Regarding England I accept it in 1 way but in another sense was there many serious tests.

I know form has been indifferent for a lot of these countries, but if Australia/Ireland/South Africa/Wales/Argentina aren't serious tests pretty much all the time, then the sport of rugby is basically reduced to "Who's playing New Zealand?"

No, its not been the hardest year ever, but its a long way from chopped liver either.

There's an awful lot of focus on what Ford doesn't do and hasn't done, which is a game not many Lions contenders come out well from, and an awful lot of skipping past what Ford has done and can do, which includes a few things the other guys simply haven't done and can't do. Not like people come out with "But yeah easy in a dominant team" when talking about other English players either. I'm quite perplexed about it all to be honest.

And who on earth was calling for Farrell at 10 in the autumn? In the summer, maybe, but the autumn?

p.s. Pro 12 and Prem are comparable. C'mon now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

We are talking about individuals not teams you knob, Farrell is very average Ford is slightly above average, Sam Davies will be one of the best 10s ever if he keeps improving at the current rate, he is already better than Biggar who in turn is better than both English 10's.

Bigger is a turd blossom of late whiny moany fart face.

Bigger wouldn't be in the top 5 of Prem 10's currently. ( maybe

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Bigger is a turd blossom of late whiny moany fart face.

Bigger wouldn't be in the top 5 of Prem 10's currently. ( maybe

And both of them dive like footballers

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

We are talking about individuals not teams you knob, Farrell is very average Ford is slightly above average, Sam Davies will be one of the best 10s ever if he keeps improving at the current rate, he is already better than Biggar who in turn is better than both English 10's.

Totally agree, Sam Davies is better than bigger who is obviously better than Dan carter who is better than sexton who is better than Jackson whose better than Russell whose not as good as Ford.

Hope that makes sense valley idiot.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I regret starting this, I don't give a **** about the Lions, I just like outhalves and I've only said one guy is better than him and another is in better form... So, Ford has two left feet, is far worse than Farrell and me, couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo, is pre-pubescent, a virgin and isn't good enough to tie Johnny Sexton's laces... And Sam Davies is worse! (And only 6 months younger, youngsters in Wales are old now, I'd hate to be older than Joey Carbery... ) #ROG4LIONS

Bigger is a turd blossom of late whiny moany fart face.

Bigger wouldn't be in the top 5 of Prem 10's currently. ( maybe

Sexton, Carbery, Bleyendaal, Jackson, Russell are probably all having better seasons... O's are second at the moment though and haven't lost a challenge cup game so something must be being done right, hard to judge if he is as bad as he looks with the utterly incompetent Welsh national side.

 

[munstermuffin]

I know form has been indifferent for a lot of these countries, but if Australia/Ireland/South Africa/Wales/Argentina aren't serious tests pretty much all the time, then the sport of rugby is basically reduced to "Who's playing New Zealand?"

No, its not been the hardest year ever, but its a long way from chopped liver either.

There's an awful lot of focus on what Ford doesn't do and hasn't done, which is a game not many Lions contenders come out well from, and an awful lot of skipping past what Ford has done and can do, which includes a few things the other guys simply haven't done and can't do. Not like people come out with "But yeah easy in a dominant team" when talking about other English players either. I'm quite perplexed about it all to be honest.

And who on earth was calling for Farrell at 10 in the autumn? In the summer, maybe, but the autumn?

p.s. Pro 12 and Prem are comparable. C'mon now.

My point Peat is. The unbeaten year can't be over hyped either. Its a great achievement but equally has to be put in perspective.
In Autumn AIs were there any real tests.
I'll put it another way. Me and Alpha will argue all day on Kearney debate. He played against NZ in Chicago. Some tip him as touring others like me think he shouldn't be in Irish 23. Point is a team performance doesn't mean 10 has been form. As Alpha said regards ROG in past.

And regards AIs I read a few articles arguing for Farrell. As I said I can't comment too much on debate.

On Pro12 vs Aviva Prem. I seriously do think there is no difference. Like can I ask this. What makes Prem so much better.

I'd argue this.
Guys like Niall Morris Johne Murphy all made very good club players in England but struggled in Ireland.
I think it's a myth that Prem is so much better and have yet to see 1 piec3 of evidence.
In Europe English teams have never dominated. Just 1 good club here and there. Leicester and Wasps were fabulous teams at their peaks. But even then they had to battle past the Pro12s best at business end.

I'd love to see where the Pro12 is worst. As I said on Lions 10 I'm not fussed either way but the Pro 12 vs Prem bit I do think it a bit much to say there a gap when there isn't really and that has been shown hugely on Europe this year. As for the debate on players been rested. If you look at the stats the Internationals in England get nearly same amount of rest just it's not as clear shown as spread is over 12 teams and not 3 here.

 

[valley commando]

Totally agree, Sam Davies is better than bigger who is obviously better than Dan carter who is better than sexton who is better than Jackson whose better than Russell whose not as good as Ford.

Hope that makes sense valley idiot.

You are the idiot, typical arrogant English fan

 

[SelimNiai]

We are talking about individuals not teams you knob, Farrell is very average Ford is slightly above average, Sam Davies will be one of the best 10s ever if he keeps improving at the current rate, he is already better than Biggar who in turn is better than both English 10's.

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[RedruthRFC]

You are the idiot, typical arrogant English fan

You could clear a lot of this up by explaining why Biggar is better than anyone eligible for England. I've always been fairly ambivalent about Ford, but some of the cases made for him by his advocates in this thread persuaded me towards the case for him.

It's easy to make cases for players if they develop at their current rate, but how many do? I went overboard on the amount of potential I thought I saw in Courtney Lawes and cringe when I look back and see how quickly he hit his ceiling.

 

[Peat]

My comment was in defence of the Pro 12.

My point Peat is. The unbeaten year can't be over hyped either. Its a great achievement but equally has to be put in perspective.
In Autumn AIs were there any real tests.

Yes. See my previous answer.

I'll put it another way. Me and Alpha will argue all day on Kearney debate. He played against NZ in Chicago. Some tip him as touring others like me think he shouldn't be in Irish 23. Point is a team performance doesn't mean 10 has been form. As Alpha said regards ROG in past.

The argument that X has been in a winning team ergo he is great is a crap argument its true.

The argument that the team has been winning when X has been central to the team is a different kettle of fish.

Could Jackson or Russell have been as central if given the chance? Possibly. They're very talented. But we'll never know.

And regards AIs I read a few articles arguing for Farrell. As I said I can't comment too much on debate.

Don't suppose you remember who or where? I wasn't paying that much attention this autumn but I had been under the impression that the decision was pretty unanimous. It certainly deserved to be after the summer.

 

[munstermuffin]

QUOTE

Rugby 2005 chat in here

It was Times and I nearly certain Barnes made reference in a sky sports collumn.

Regards Ford argument. Look you know Englabd better than me and how central he was. I watched games but wouldn't remember as easily as irish games.
As I said I'm not fussed on who gets in my point originally wasn't putting Ford down. More so saying Russell and Jackson are in mix simply because their form in Europe especially has been superb.


This was in response to Peat

 

[Blindside]

I think Biggar is in with a shout.. .though needs a big Six Nations. Biggar as with any 10 is effected by the quality of the side hes playing in. He runs a game well, is a great kicker, has some great attributes such as retrieving the high ball an i think he distributes well and he is brave in defense. Many would argue about his distribution skills, but i dont think Wales have played a particularly varied game and their running lines are often very basic. Wales are not a good team at the moment, such is the expectation in Wales, if the side does not perform the 10 takes the fall. He does lack the kind of pace that makes him a threat with ball in hand. Ford has been playing in a far better team and probably has greater vision and is more of an attacking threat. I would personally put Biggar in front of Farrell at 10.

To talk about Sam Davies going with the Lions is nonsense in my view, he does attack the gain line and takes more risks but is no where near Lion standard yet. Cant see more than around 5 Welsh players going.