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(Very) early thoughts on the 2017 Lions

munstermuffin said:
It was Times and I nearly certain Barnes made reference in a sky sports collumn.
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I think you know most peoples opinions of Barnes and his opinions.....I mean he was calling for Farrell to start at 12 for Lions which I still find laughable.
 
ncurd said:
I think you know most peoples opinions of Barnes and his opinions.....I mean he was calling for Farrell to start at 12 for Lions which I still find laughable.
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Really? From what I've read recently the centre partnerships being thrown around are Henshaw and JJ or Farrell and Henshaw. If Ford is 10 I'd want Farrell at 12, Henshaw if its J Sex. I really like what Farrell brings to inside centre, its easily his strongest position.
 
living sacrifice said:
Great banter, you are keeping me very entertained today.

Just to clarify then, do you think Sam Davies is better than a wet turd on a warm day...I see them more as equal to be honest.
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Well its ridiculous to put him in the running for the Lions. However he is showing signs of international standard. To compare him to a turd is a bit of a shi t comment.
 
I'd want Sexton, Henshaw & JJ, with Ford on the bench ( I'd rather impact as opposed to cover which is what Farrell would bring). Depending on what happens I think I'd like to see what Ford could do with Murray and Henshaw it gives me wet dreams.
 
munstermuffin said:
My point Peat is. The unbeaten year can't be over hyped either. Its a great achievement but equally has to be put in perspective.
In Autumn AIs were there any real tests.
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As someone else mentioned, this is hardly fair is it? Essentially it reduces the argument to any win that isn't against NZ isn't a real test and thus not valid, which is clearly absurd. SA have had a terrible year yes but writing off Australia? Remember they destroyed Wales, gave the ABs a bit of a scare, beat Scotland and Ireland only just scraped past them. Literally the only Lions side to have conclusively beaten Australia is England. Writing off SA as not a test yet they beat Ireland twice and won the tour...? If we discount all the teams that England played, that literally leaves only NZ as one that is a "real" test. If the Irish deem themselves better because they won one of these real tests, then how can you explain not giving England the same credit for beating Ireland 5 of the last 6 times? That 1 loss by England is always mentioned but the 5 wins aren't.

Ultimately it seems like you are boiling the entire England-Ireland-Wales-Scotland matchup down to the 1 win against NZ vs Wales being hammered by them and England and Scotland not playing them at all, ergo Ireland are better.

With regards to centres, it has got to be a mix of Farrell/Henshaw at 12 and JJ/Daly at 13. The Welsh centres shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions except for midweek games on current form and although I like Jones for Scotland, he has not yet had a chance to prove his form is a show of true potential rather than a good year, definitely one to keep an eye on though, maybe even bring him for midweek games too?
 
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English teams have never dominated Europe?

Leicester where the first team to win it back to back.

In fact in the heinken cup era 10 finals involved English teams whereas 9 finals involved Itish teams.
 
ragerancher said:
As someone else mentioned, this is hardly fair is it? Essentially it reduces the argument to any win that isn't against NZ isn't a real test and thus not valid, which is clearly absurd. SA have had a terrible year yes but writing off Australia? Remember they destroyed Wales, gave the ABs a bit of a scare, beat Scotland and Ireland only just scraped past them. Literally the only Lions side to have conclusively beaten Australia is England. Writing off SA as not a test yet they beat Ireland twice and won the tour...? If we discount all the teams that England played, that literally leaves only NZ as one that is a "real" test. If the Irish deem themselves better because they won one of these real tests, then how can you explain not giving England the same credit for beating Ireland 5 of the last 6 times? That 1 loss by England is always mentioned but the 5 wins aren't.

Ultimately it seems like you are boiling the entire England-Ireland-Wales-Scotland matchup down to the 1 win against NZ vs Wales being hammered by them and England and Scotland not playing them at all, ergo Ireland are better.

With regards to centres, it has got to be a mix of Farrell/Henshaw at 12 and JJ/Daly at 13. The Welsh centres shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions except for midweek games on current form and although I like Jones for Scotland, he has not yet had a chance to prove his form is a show of true potential rather than a good year, definitely one to keep an eye on though, maybe even bring him for midweek games too?
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Don't see Daly in the running for 13, he's barely played there, although could be for winger or FB depending what Jones does with him in the 6N. For me the test centres are 2 from Farrell/Henshaw/JJ, with Henshaw covering both positions. FWIW, it's Sexton/Henshaw/JJ if it was up to me right now.

However, I 100% do not see how anyone does not think Ford is one of the frontrunners. Sexton is the only 10 Ford is definitely not ahead of in my view, Russell is perhaps up with those two but I wouldn't confidently call it - maybe unfair because he's playing for a weaker team, maybe I don't see enough of him, I don't know. I'm ready to be convinced, I've certainly been extremely impressed by him especially the two Racing games. Biggar is not good enough even on his best form IMO, maybe personal bias but he just doesn't do what I believe all fly halves should do. Sam Davies, as we all know is too good to tour - it would not be fair on the All Blacks.
 
ncurd said:
I'd want Sexton, Henshaw & JJ, with Ford on the bench ( I'd rather impact as opposed to cover which is what Farrell would bring). Depending on what happens I think I'd like to see what Ford could do with Murray and Henshaw it gives me wet dreams.
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FTR (again) - this
 
Tigs Man said:
English teams have never dominated Europe?

Leicester where the first team to win it back to back.

In fact in the heinken cup era 10 finals involved English teams whereas 9 finals involved Itish teams.
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Read the comment correct sir

And in a Heineken Cup era Leinster have had 3 finals. Ulster 2. Munster 4.
As I said read properly. Acknowledged Leicester had great team. And Wasps. Doesn't mean the Prem as a whole is top brand now does it? Just that there was a top top club team.

Dominate Europe is where you've 2 or 3 teams that are serious contenders. Like French had last few years. Premiership has never had that.
As I said for every great team you refer to there was a Pro12 team there too.
 
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ragerancher said:
As someone else mentioned, this is hardly fair is it? Essentially it reduces the argument to any win that isn't against NZ isn't a real test and thus not valid, which is clearly absurd. SA have had a terrible year yes but writing off Australia? Remember they destroyed Wales, gave the ABs a bit of a scare, beat Scotland and Ireland only just scraped past them. Literally the only Lions side to have conclusively beaten Australia is England. Writing off SA as not a test yet they beat Ireland twice and won the tour...? If we discount all the teams that England played, that literally leaves only NZ as one that is a "real" test. If the Irish deem themselves better because they won one of these real tests, then how can you explain not giving England the same credit for beating Ireland 5 of the last 6 times? That 1 loss by England is always mentioned but the 5 wins aren't.

Ultimately it seems like you are boiling the entire England-Ireland-Wales-Scotland matchup down to the 1 win against NZ vs Wales being hammered by them and England and Scotland not playing them at all, ergo Ireland are better.

With regards to centres, it has got to be a mix of Farrell/Henshaw at 12 and JJ/Daly at 13. The Welsh centres shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions except for midweek games on current form and although I like Jones for Scotland, he has not yet had a chance to prove his form is a show of true potential rather than a good year, definitely one to keep an eye on though, maybe even bring him for midweek games too?
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I'd take Ringrose and Jones ahead of Daly. I think with a full 6nations under his belt Ringrose will be in the conversation as a starter. JJ is way in front at the moment but he's catchable over the course of 5 internationals and up to four European matches especially with guys like Ringrose and Jones who are improving with every game.
 
Something that might count against Ringrose is limited experience of the other back 3 positions. There's going to be a few boys going on tour because they cover all 3 to a point. Wiki tells me Huw Jones does that and I know Daly does. Ringrose is centre or bust.

Now I think about it, I think Jones is really well positioned to go on tour. Playing in Super Rugby gives him a head start in terms of knowing his opposition.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Something that might count against Ringrose is limited experience of the other back 3 positions. There's going to be a few boys going on tour because they cover all 3 to a point. Wiki tells me Huw Jones does that and I know Daly does. Ringrose is centre or bust.

Now I think about it, I think Jones is really well positioned to go on tour. Playing in Super Rugby gives him a head start in terms of knowing his opposition.
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Ringrose has played European cup rugby on the wing, you couldn't throw him in at fullback but if he's deemed a better 13 than Davies, Payne, Jones and Daly I doubt that will stop him flying especially when its likely that Williams, Hogg, Halfpenny and Watson/Nowell will fly and can cover fullback.

Ringrose is one of the players I'd least like to see tour but if I was coaching this thing he'd be on my radar right now.
 
TRF_Peat said:
Something that might count against Ringrose is limited experience of the other back 3 positions. There's going to be a few boys going on tour because they cover all 3 to a point. Wiki tells me Huw Jones does that and I know Daly does. Ringrose is centre or bust.

Now I think about it, I think Jones is really well positioned to go on tour. Playing in Super Rugby gives him a head start in terms of knowing his opposition.
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We'll get a good look at Jones and Ringrose at the 6N. Jones took his opportunity against Australia with a couple of tries. Bennett is a good outside centre but Jones looks physically stronger and has very quick feet. Farrell and Jones at 12 and 13 could be a good prospect for the midweek side assuming Henshaw and JJ are first choice.
 
Tigs Man said:
Nah Ringrose will be way down the 13 pecking order for the lions IMO
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As of now I'd agree, he's only had three caps with two at 12, but he'll be 13 throughout the 6 nations for one of the better two nations and will likely reach a semi final in Europe so if form goes his way there's 9 matches that'll be watched to give him a chance. I don't see all that much between any of the guys in the conversation for 13 after JJ. Along with wing I think its the weakest position though, they'll be relying heavily on JJ making it through the tour because after him there's a big drop if no one throws their hand up in the next few months.

This tour has a chance to pick some really young guys, I wouldn't waste that chance if I was Gatland because I think it'd help boost morale very quickly and lead to less injuries along the way.
 
How can you poo poo any notion of Daly going but then say ringsting is in with a shout?
 
TRF_Olyy said:
How can you poo poo any notion of Daly going but then say ringsting is in with a shout?
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I didn't really do that but thinking Ringrose and Jones are better 13's is a start, as well as Davies, Payne and obviously JJ, they both have the advantage of playing international rugby at 13 in the next few months rather than looking pretty average out on the wing too, assuming Daly makes it that far.

Watching every game Ringrose plays helps too, especially considering Daly was out of the European fixtures I watched.
 
Is ringrose this generations Keith earls?
Couple of good performances and everyone goes mental until he fades away into club level obscurity?
 

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