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The Improvement of Tier Two Nations - In Particular Georgia.

So you are proposing Italy be dropped until they find a 10-12 combination? And since you say Wales and Scotland had periods of "barrel scraping crap" did you say you were tired of having an "uncompetitive" Scotland and Wales in the tournament and they should be removed?

you're being too harsh on Italy, they may not be the greatest side but they are well worth having in the tournament

I didn't say you said it was, but people in general thinking it will so amazingly improve Georgia/Russia national sides,

what exactly would be your qualification? would you want them to have to beat all the sides considering you don't consider Italy beating all but 2 sides good enough

Good gods no. That would be mad. You'd guarantee them never finding one and set their progress back by about ten years. And while it would amuse me to force Scotland/Wales to leave, they are rarely uncompetitive for long - even at their worst, sheer hate propels them into competitiveness with England on an individual basis - and I'm not keen on losing rivalries.

I am being harsh on Italy, I am all for their continued inclusion but one is enough and I'd like a better effort at bringing in the next one at a more competitive moment.

And I don't know, but I'll let you know when I see it. Or, to put it another way, when I stop expecting us to simply turn up and win, their case will start having merit.
 
Snoopy snoopy dog dog, I agree 100% with pretty much every post on this topic

this post reflects my thoughts exactly, the IRB should champion and offer incentives for players from tier 2 nations to be playing professionally, the more players that play professionally the better training and higher level experience improves the players and back into the national team, the teams are obviously going to opt for South Africans or New Zealanders now but if incentives were made then they might take another look

that is they way to go and would improve the national side much better than entry to the Amlin Challenge Cup ever would

Strange how opinion can vary. I do not agree. Firstly I would imagine that you both know very little about the Georgian championship. All I know is that is has recently turned professional and has produced players, even when amateur, produced players that are able to play in the Top14. Let's say that what your saying is true. Is that really the best way to strengthen a country team? Especially considering you both agree that Georgia are both competitive and be in the 6nations?

To me that suggests they have a strong domestic competition that needs European exposure and not have players playing over sea that would probably, looking at current trends, not be released for internationals? Also how many young props who would be sent to France to learn their trade would opt to play for France. Out of say 10 I would predict at least 2.

So I don't think the iRB investing in taking the best players and playing them in other countries is a good idea, I think it is a terrible idea. It won't be good for the country or fans. What about the iRB invest into coaches and installing facilities that are equal, or better, than that found in Western Europe?
 
a key reason for Georgia's improvement is shipping players to French academies very young, the majority of their squad, players are going over to France aged 18-20 and joining academies there, and although it's true it's a struggle to get the Top 14 players released sometimes, training and gaining top level experience week in week out improves the players and then national team, and although players will miss the European Nations Cup and IRB Nations Cup, but when they play World Cup or Autumn International the side is much better

regarding the players turning French, dozens of young Georgians have gone over to France and I can't think of any who has turned French, this is actually another thing of having players often not available for European Nations Cup matches, the young players who go on and sign in France often already have a few caps or have played for the A side because the Top 14 players aren't released

also most of the Georgian squad are based in France anyway (23/30), so it wouldn't be that much change, the Georgian championship will never have as much money as even French or English second division so players will continue to leave

the Georgian Championship is professional by the way

I did say it was professional?

I understand the importance and the impact that French academics have had on Georgian rugby players, but you have to understand that these players just don't move to France and deny a local French lad a place in the academy for no good reason. The amount of players that are now playing the Top14 and D2 speaks testament to the obvious good Georgian structure that get schoolboys and young adults to the point were they are being offered professional academy places.

The iRB paying players to play overseas may seem good but it is not an answer to the countries long term development. I think that the idea is just counter productive and the iRB investing into Georgian infrastructure is money better spent. It is obvious that Georgia could be a great rugby nation and they appear to have everything there needed to become one. Undermining the Georgian league is counter productive and a step back rather than forward.

I am also not sure if any Georgian player has ever opted to play for any other nation, but if they haven't I would guarantee you that under your proposed changes it would happen.
 
I did say it was professional?

I understand the importance and the impact that French academics have had on Georgian rugby players, but you have to understand that these players just don't move to France and deny a local French lad a place in the academy for no good reason. The amount of players that are now playing the Top14 and D2 speaks testament to the obvious good Georgian structure that get schoolboys and young adults to the point were they are being offered professional academy places.

The iRB paying players to play overseas may seem good but it is not an answer to the countries long term development. I think that the idea is just counter productive and the iRB investing into Georgian infrastructure is money better spent. It is obvious that Georgia could be a great rugby nation and they appear to have everything there needed to become one. Undermining the Georgian league is counter productive and a step back rather than forward.

I am also not sure if any Georgian player has ever opted to play for any other nation, but if they haven't I would guarantee you that under your proposed changes it would happen.

What comes to mind after reading this is the hours of time I spent responding to posts from people criticizing the idea of Argentina entering the Tri Nations. The UAR needs to get its house in order... the UAR needs to be professional... etc. These comments were wide spread and yet everytime I responded by pointing out that Australia had absolutely no professional set up at home or any domestic championship whatsoever the calls for Argentina to have a domestic pro comp were not weakend. Australia still has nothing domestic yet Argentina has a National Provincial Championship and very well working club competitions which are city and regional based.

Argentina got good from France and to a lesser extent England, Scotland, Italy and Ireland contracting players and giving them regular game time in professional leagues. The week-in, week-out routine produced the Bronze Medal winning side. The same system is largely responsible for Fiji toppling Wales in 2007 and indeed for Georgia coming from nothing to a genuine tier two side knocking on tier one.

All country´s have their own history. All are different and different rugby systems apply to different places. The Top 14 is perfect for France. Not so for Wales. Super Rugby is perfect for Australia. Not so for New Zealand (as it has meant the national competition has been significantly downgraded). It would be great for Georgia to have improved domestic infrastructure but it seems to be clear that the players in France are the ones developing the most. Georgia´s domestic structure, in my view, is on the right track and will take a long time to appraoch that of the 6 Nations but could rival Scotland and Italy´s two premier level pro team structure by the end of the decade.
 
It would be fun if they put a couple of the Heineken cup matches on while the 7 nations were on going.

It would be interesting to see how teams felt then with all the star players missing.
 
The list of young georgian players U23 in academies in French or England :

Vasil Kakovin (prop, born 1989, CA Brive) // plays with the first squad and were the best loosehead of the mid-season by rugbyrama and Midi Olympique
Giorgi Jashitashvili (prop, born 1989, ASM Clermont)
Mikheil Nariashvili (prop, born 1990, Montpellier HRC) // 6 Top14 games and 5 HCup games
Giorgi Menabdishvili (prop, born 1990, FC Grenoble)
Levan Chilachava (prop, born 1991, RC Toulon) // 1 Amlin Cup game
Zurab Zvhania (prop, born 1991, Stade Français)
Val Rapava (prop/n°8, born 1992, Saracens RFC)
Vakhtang Akhobadze (prop, born 1992, SC Albi)
Tamaz Tetrashvili (prop, born 1992, SC Albi)
Giorgi Lomtadze (hooker, born 1993, will plays for Montpellier next year, this year in England)
Ilia Surguladze (lock, born 1989, Lyon OU)
Konstantin Mikautadze (lock, born 1991, RC Toulon) // 1 Top14 game, 2 Amlin Cup games
Viktor Kolelishvili (flanker, born 1989, ASM Clermont)
Giorgi Jimsheladze (centre, born 1990, ASM Clermont)
David Losaberidze (centre/n°8, born 1991, S Pau) // played pre season games with the senior squad
Merab Sharikadze (centre/wing, born 1993, Gloucester RFC)
Sandro Nijaradze (wing, born 1987 but plays for Gloucester RFC 'A')
Saba Labadze (wing, born 1992, RC Toulon)
 
What comes to mind after reading this is the hours of time I spent responding to posts from people criticizing the idea of Argentina entering the Tri Nations. The UAR needs to get its house in order... the UAR needs to be professional... etc. These comments were wide spread and yet everytime I responded by pointing out that Australia had absolutely no professional set up at home or any domestic championship whatsoever the calls for Argentina to have a domestic pro comp were not weakend. Australia still has nothing domestic yet Argentina has a National Provincial Championship and very well working club competitions which are city and regional based.

Argentina got good from France and to a lesser extent England, Scotland, Italy and Ireland contracting players and giving them regular game time in professional leagues. The week-in, week-out routine produced the Bronze Medal winning side. The same system is largely responsible for Fiji toppling Wales in 2007 and indeed for Georgia coming from nothing to a genuine tier two side knocking on tier one.

All country´s have their own history. All are different and different rugby systems apply to different places. The Top 14 is perfect for France. Not so for Wales. Super Rugby is perfect for Australia. Not so for New Zealand (as it has meant the national competition has been significantly downgraded). It would be great for Georgia to have improved domestic infrastructure but it seems to be clear that the players in France are the ones developing the most. Georgia´s domestic structure, in my view, is on the right track and will take a long time to appraoch that of the 6 Nations but could rival Scotland and Italy´s two premier level pro team structure by the end of the decade.

Very valid points. And ones that are hard to contend with. But Argentina should be getting there own professional league within the next 5 years, maybe 2-3. I would bet my last pound on Argentina winning the world cup in 2019 or 2023. That will be down to them having a professional league and their involvement in the Rugby Championship. Saying all this rugby in the last 10 years have really embraced professional rugby hence the improvement of Tier two nations. I am not denying that having players overseas is a totally bad thing, I am saying the idea of the iRB investing in players to play overseas in a terrible idea. I think it would be better spent on coaches and academics.

I strongly feel for the long term development of a country investing in their own league, if it is possible, is the best long term strategy. Exactly what Argentina are doing right now. And Georgia and Russia. I have read rumours that the U.S. and Canada are doing the exact same thing, though I have heard them before.

The old expression of Rome wasn't built in a day springs to mind. Start with the establishment of a professional league, get involved in a cross boarder competition, have the international team involved in a meaningful competition and then rate yourself against the Southern Hemisphere every Autumn.
The above idea of sending all good players overseas would kill any progression of a country that has potential to play tier one rugby.
 
So i read all the posts and people seem to get most of the things right about us. I can't quote every post so I'l just write Georgian point of view: We think that our leagues is quite strong and getting stronger. especially in last 2 years a lot of work was done by GRU and everyone involved with rugby.
New team that was created last year called "The Army" returned many old and experienced players from other leagues. this was another big step for Georgian rugby. it also gave us a hint as to where Georgian championship stands right now, army even though being kind of an "All Star" team had to fight very hard to get the ***le.

They say that player wages are getting higher every year and sponsors(even though still not enough) are paying more attention to rugby than other sports (soccer, basketball, etc) and this has never been the case before. yes it was popular in masses but rich people were always wary when it came to sponsoring rugby.

also some people mentioned the danger of Georgians being naturalized by other countries etc etc etc... take my word on this guys Georgians are kinda "special" when it comes to being Georgian(especially rugby players). I can not imagine anyone choosing to play for another country for money, fame or whatever the reason. we are too proud for that. Also Georgians prefer to stay in Georgia if they are offered normal salary and given normal conditions (training facilities etc).
you guys should realize that most players aren't going to France for money GRU works very hard to get every single talent they discover out of the country ASAP. Players playing abroad are going to keep national team strong until our domestic league is strong enough to supply it directly.. BTW on this years RWC almost half of the players in the national side were from Georgian championship, not bad right ?

AND THE BIG NEWS the hooker for the "The Army club" Jaba Bregvadze just transferred DIRECTLY to Toulouse starting lineup :D and will play there for a year. that should tell the story. you know guys these players are not Just made out of thin air i think most people underestimate how serious the rugby business is in Georgia.

if you guys wanna ask something I'l gladly answer....

I also stand by my opinion that Psychic duck is Georgian even though he states otherwise... or how else would he know so much ? usually people don't give a dang about Georgia.


one thing about USA i play rugby here in its terrible i don't know how its getting better if anything everyone says it used to be better in the "early days"? so i don't any see development in the US unfortunately... they say rugby in Canada is in much better shape tough.
 
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@Jayatron
You're right, I know very little about the Georgian championship other than the fact that it's semi pro. Ideally what you're saying is correct and I agree wholeheartedly. It would be brilliant if Georgia could keep all of it's top players at home, pay them well and compete in the Heineken Cup. Realistically that's a non runner. Georgia doesn't even have a representative in the Amlin Cup so it could be a decade before they're even considered for Heineken Cup inclusion. Which of the 6 Nations will vote to restrict the number of teams from their nation included for this to happen? I'd wager none unless the Georgian Rugby Union pay a hell of a lot of money to the affected Union. That's money they don't have and would be better spent investing in grassroots rugby and growing the playing base.

What I'm saying isn't ideal either. The "home union's" are self serving and conservative. Unless there's something in it for them, they'll resist all change. Hence we won't see a Georgian, Russian, Portugese, Romanian, Spanish or German team compete in the Heineken Cup which will drive their best players to the established European leagues. In my opinion, the only way teams from those countries can keep their top players at home is to establish a pan-European league to take over from the Heineken Cup, Amlin Cup, Pro 12, Top 14 and Premiership. A Georgian franchise as one of 40 or so teams in such a competition could be a realistic option.

Again money rather than development of the sport will dictate whether or not that happens. For now Georgia should strive to have as many of it's players in France, England etc. If there's a way to facilitate this, it'll beefit Georgian and international rugby. It's just my opinion though, I've no evidence to back it up.
 
I don't see any contradiction in a long-term goal of a Georgian pro-league or Georgian participation in an Eastern variant of the Rabble Pro, strong enough to develop full internationals, and the short-term expedient of persuading Georgia's finest to test themselves in the best leagues. Creating a pool of Georgian players used to playing week in, week out at a high standard, some of whom will go on to coach the next generation, seems to be a necessary first step for such a league. Particularly if this also creates a strong enough international team to be admitted to Tier 1 and the 6N in the process, creating even more interest in Georgia.
 
Maybe, the best solution would be for the tier 2 countries to start up their own European competition for themselves? Eventually that competition could combine with the HEC to make the HEC a 32 team competition.

The tier 1 nations must do more to help the sport grow. It would benefit them in the long run too.
 
Why?
Russian teams :
Enisey has beaten easily two team from the italian chapionship in 2011 (L'Aquila 12-24 and Lazio Rugby 11-37)
And VVA Podmoskovye has beaten FC Grenoble 45-40 in 2011 too; Grenoble is actually the leader of ProD2

Bucharest Wolves :
win easily over Crociati RFC in Amlin Cup (the two times with bonus point), and lost only 13-24 against Worcester

Spanish teams :
Last year Cetransa El Salvador won over Petrarca 36-16; this year La Vila lost only 38-13 in Brive, next year, the team will be surely UE Santboiana, they signs a lot of good players they won 10 games, 9 with the bonus point, they just lost 2 games (1 with the bonus) in the spanish championship

Im sure teams from Portugal or Georgia will have the same results...
 
a) The Italian championship is poo

b) Losing only 38-13 in Brive and 13-24 against Wuss, particularly considering how seriously the English/French sides take such competition when putting out their sides, is nothing to boast about.
 
What comes to mind after reading this is the hours of time I spent responding to posts from people criticizing the idea of Argentina entering the Tri Nations. The UAR needs to get its house in order... the UAR needs to be professional... etc. These comments were wide spread and yet everytime I responded by pointing out that Australia had absolutely no professional set up at home or any domestic championship whatsoever the calls for Argentina to have a domestic pro comp were not weakend. Australia still has nothing domestic yet Argentina has a National Provincial Championship and very well working club competitions which are city and regional based.

Argentina got good from France and to a lesser extent England, Scotland, Italy and Ireland contracting players and giving them regular game time in professional leagues. The week-in, week-out routine produced the Bronze Medal winning side. The same system is largely responsible for Fiji toppling Wales in 2007 and indeed for Georgia coming from nothing to a genuine tier two side knocking on tier one.

All country´s have their own history. All are different and different rugby systems apply to different places. The Top 14 is perfect for France. Not so for Wales. Super Rugby is perfect for Australia. Not so for New Zealand (as it has meant the national competition has been significantly downgraded). It would be great for Georgia to have improved domestic infrastructure but it seems to be clear that the players in France are the ones developing the most. Georgia´s domestic structure, in my view, is on the right track and will take a long time to appraoch that of the 6 Nations but could rival Scotland and Italy´s two premier level pro team structure by the end of the decade.

You won't get much argument from me on most of what you say here, although I have always felt that Argentina should ultimately try to get their own professional (or at least semi-professional) rugby competition, I don't think that the lack of one should ever have been a bar to them joining the tri-nations. Like Italy with the 6N, they have been allowed in too late. Italy should have been in when they were at their best; in 1997 when they beat France, Ireland and Scotland in the same 12 month period. Same with Argentina, they should at least have been in as early as 2007 when it was apparent that they were fast becoming one of the top sides in the world. In early October of that year, the top four IRB Ranked sides were New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Argentina, in that order.

Australia use Super Rugby as their professional domestic competition, so that after sixteen years of Super Rugby, they still do not have anything comparable with the NZ's ITM Cup or SA's Currie Cup. This is possibly a reason why their referees are generally crap, as they jump straight from the largely amateur rugby of the Shute Shield and the Hospital Cup in Sydney and Brisbane respectively, into the cauldron of Super Rugby, where they are in over their heads and found wanting. Its one of the reasons why Aussie referees have been encouraged to lift their standards by being invited to control ITM Cup games in the past couple of years.

Argentina has a good semi professional championship now, and it looks like their "Campeonato Argentino de Mayores" (Senior Argentine Championship) in 2012 will include teams from Chile and Uruguay for the first time. Of course it should not be forgotten that many of their top domestic players played in South Africa's Vodacom Cup in 2011, and they won it!!

I strongly feel for the long term development of a country investing in their own league, if it is possible, is the best long term strategy. Exactly what Argentina are doing right now. And Georgia and Russia. I have read rumours that the U.S. and Canada are doing the exact same thing, though I have heard them before.

The old expression of Rome wasn't built in a day springs to mind. Start with the establishment of a professional league, get involved in a cross boarder competition, have the international team involved in a meaningful competition and then rate yourself against the Southern Hemisphere every Autumn.

The above idea of sending all good players overseas would kill any progression of a country that has potential to play tier one rugby.

This I agree with too. Its hard to pull local crowds into local games, when all your best players are 12,000 miles away playing for teams that mean nothing to them. Its why we don't pick All Blacks from New Zealanders playing in Europe. If we did, the fear is that would simply open the flood gates for players chasing the â'¬, and kill the domestic game in NZ.

Rather we look at it from the perspective that every time a player heads for, say, England, and takes a spot in an Aviva Premiership side, it closes the door on a young England player, and opens the door for a young New Zealand player to step up into the big time.
 
Arg, and any international team that enters either the 6 or 4 nations in the future will need a strong domestic league to keep elite levels high as less of their players will receive contracts from Prem/Top14 clubs due to lack of availability. This is already being discussed in regards to Arg players.
 
I don't understand why people are calling for tier two nations to playmore internationals with Tier 1, elite nations. Getting dicked over all the time doesn't make you a better team. A coach can say to a reasonable team: look at how they beat you, they did that instead of this, look if we had done that we could have won. Say what Gatland could have said after the defeat to France, or Italys many defeats etc. But if England play Georgia, and they get beaten 100 to 10, what can their coach say other than: every man opposite you is actually a better player than you.

Just look at the Aviva premiership. Newcastle have been beaten by pretty much everyone in the last 3 years. It has made them get progressively worse.


Maybe when nation x or y is beating all the other tier two nations with winning margions of 30+ points then there can be a call for more tier one rugby, until then there really is little point.
 
This I agree with too. Its hard to pull local crowds into local games, when all your best players are 12,000 miles away playing for teams that mean nothing to them. Its why we don't pick All Blacks from New Zealanders playing in Europe. If we did, the fear is that would simply open the flood gates for players chasing the €, and kill the domestic game in NZ.

Surely that would only apply to a completely nationally minded country? If people are enhusiastic about rugby and enhusiastic about their town, they'll want their towns to beat other towns at rugby. Whether so and so plays or doesn't play is surely irrelevent, when you are getting behind your local teams result over rival teams.
 
I don't understand why people are calling for tier two nations to playmore internationals with Tier 1, elite nations. Getting dicked over all the time doesn't make you a better team. A coach can say to a reasonable team: look at how they beat you, they did that instead of this, look if we had done that we could have won. Say what Gatland could have said after the defeat to France, or Italys many defeats etc. But if England play Georgia, and they get beaten 100 to 10, what can their coach say other than: every man opposite you is actually a better player than you.

Just look at the Aviva premiership. Newcastle have been beaten by pretty much everyone in the last 3 years. It has made them get progressively worse.


Maybe when nation x or y is beating all the other tier two nations with winning margions of 30+ points then there can be a call for more tier one rugby, until then there really is little point.

For me it's not nessecarily about Canada playing NZ or SA more but some games against the Celtic sides, Italy and Argentina would be productiive.
 
I don't understand why people are calling for tier two nations to playmore internationals with Tier 1, elite nations. Getting dicked over all the time doesn't make you a better team. A coach can say to a reasonable team: look at how they beat you, they did that instead of this, look if we had done that we could have won. Say what Gatland could have said after the defeat to France, or Italys many defeats etc. But if England play Georgia, and they get beaten 100 to 10, what can their coach say other than: every man opposite you is actually a better player than you.

Just look at the Aviva premiership. Newcastle have been beaten by pretty much everyone in the last 3 years. It has made them get progressively worse.


Maybe when nation x or y is beating all the other tier two nations with winning margions of 30+ points then there can be a call for more tier one rugby, until then there really is little point.

Yep. I cannot see any point in some Tier 2 nations playing Tier 1 nations on a regular basis, and getting dicked every time. Its not helpful for either team, except that the Tier 2 team gets plenty of practice tackling and kicking off!

Its is well known that sportsmen improve when they play regularly against opponents who are above their level, but not too far above. What the iRB needs to institute is a regular Tier 2/3 competition, something akin to Football's Confederations Cup. Something like the World cup, scaled down, hosted by a Tier 2 nation or multiple hosts at once, and played over a shorter period with less teams involved. It could be used as a RWC qualifying tournament in lieu of the haphazard and expensive system currently in place. A couple of the better Tier 3 teams could be invited too.


Surely that would only apply to a completely nationally minded country? If people are enhusiastic about rugby and enhusiastic about their town, they'll want their towns to beat other towns at rugby. Whether so and so plays or doesn't play is surely irrelevent, when you are getting behind your local teams result over rival teams.

Not necessarily. If that were the case, why are the crowd figures in France lower for ProD2 than Top 14, and even lower for Federale 1 & 2? Why is it that teams who get promoted and do well, get better crowds.

Surely this is partly because most of the best players are playing in higher divisions? Same applies in NZ to the Heartland Championship, in Australia to the Shute Shield, in South Africa to the Vodacom Cup, in England to the Championship, and National Leagues 1 & 2.

Can you honestly say that if we reversed the current situation so that all the big money in Rugby was in New Zealand, Australia and South Africa, with France's best 150 players playing Super Rugby, ITM Cup and Currie Cup, that the Top 14 would still draw the same crowds, and sponsorships?
 
Perhaps what we are building here is a strong case for promotion/relegation between the Six Nations and Division One of the European Nations Cup. I wouldn't advocate automatic PR but rather a PR playoff match at the end of the season, with the Six Nations team at home.

Georgia are the current ENC holders so if P/R had been implemented last year, they would have played Italy in Italy. I don't know enough about their relative strengths to know whether or not Georgia could have won such a match (AFAIK they have only ever met once, in 2003, and Italy won 31-22) so I will leave others to speculate on that.

Were they ever to get into the Six Nations, I don't think any of the other five teams would relish a trip to Tbilisi in February/March!!
 

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