The Improvement of Tier Two Nations - In Particular Georgia.

[Seaton]

A question Melhor.. hmmm somehow my keyboard has parted like the Red Sea, but anyway, is this:

Do you think that Argentina and England would have won those games had we not screwed up at those two restarts?

England maybe, they had the momentum, but Argentina were barely threatening at all to score a try, it took a copious amount of errors and several poor tackles in the space of one movement for them to score.

I can confidently say that in my opinion if the kick-off for Amorosino's (sp) try had been dealt with properly, even contested, then Argentina wouldn't have scored. Am I wrong to think that?

 

[welshglory]

Scotland do host matches in the rest of Scotland. Just not the big ones.

When they have played Canada and Samoa in the past it was in Aberdeen.

I don't really know what your expecting? because Murrayfield is the only decent sized rugby stadium in Scotland, 6 nations matches have to be in one stadium and as you said Scotland doesn't play many test matches.

If you look at the fixture list for all countries up till 2019 you will see that more of these minnow teams will be touring and having a chance at playing the big boys. Thats why they have gotten rid of the Churchill Cup.

 

[Jayatron]

I think Scotland and Italy are close and that rightfully the home team virtually always wins. I think if Georgia were in the Six Nations they´d make it better and be no worse than Italy were from 2000-2003. I also think that Scotland vs Georgia is a similar battle to that of France vs Ireland. France vs Scotland or Italy, in contrast, is not a match in which anybody thinks France will lose. This is still the case after the shock in Rome last year.

The fact that Italy won underlines what some people have said - you can´t win without opportunities. Throwing a team to the Lions is ridiculous. Some examples being South Africa vs Uruguay in 2004 or Spain vs Australia in 2000. Georgia is much better in 2012 than these sides and should be playing both Scotland and Italy on an annual basis. I´d rate the Lelo´s chances of a win as being equal to Fiji´s chances of defeating Wales at RWC 2007.

The Scot´s are going backwards but talk like their going forwards. Coach, administrators and even some players. Going off his post match interviews vs Argentina and England, Andy Robinson really failed to grasp how Scotland had lost the games. No mention of a lack of tries but rather just bad luck and losing concentration while on defence late in the game. Scotland only know how to play one way and nobody needs an explanation of how.

There are some reasons for this. They are:

- Failure to launch attacking play. It can work - Scotland were brilliant vs Wales in 2009 despite losing.

- Lack of outreach from the SRU - considerably less work being done compared to others

- 58–13 loss to Australia and 73-0 to RSA in 2010 Junior World Championship - poor junior teams

- Only two pro teams and both are underfunded - Borders not to return. Nothing in the north either

- Murrayfield debt - Scotland needs to host more tests and Murrayfield more HCup semi´s or finals.

- Lack of matches in the rest of Scotland - Georgia is an ideal visitor to Perth or Aberdeen

- Few players being stars in France and England - Even Max Evans has been unable to shine

- Too many away tours vs the wrong teams - Sicne Scotland is poor at the junior level the players need to be blooded against apporpriate teams. Scotland playing Australia, Fiji and Samoa in 2012 is an ideal tour but it took too long to happen. Hopefully in 2014

- Too few winnable home matches in November. Two wins is a must but a rare thing. Rather than host two of Australia, New Zealand and South Africa it should be one UNTIL the team can suggest otherwise. Unless the SRU can get four matches.

- Scotland could host four every November to justify two matches vs SANZAR teams. By playing a midweek match vs Canada or the USA it would enable this. Aberdeen did well hosting Canada in 2008.

- Dan Parks in the team

Hopefully come this time in 2016 we are debating when Russia or Romania can make it the eight nations as Georgia are about to enter.

There's a lot of truth being spoken here.

 

[Melhor Time]

A question Melhor.. hmmm somehow my keyboard has parted like the Red Sea, but anyway, is this:

Do you think that Argentina and England would have won those games had we not screwed up at those two restarts?

England maybe, they had the momentum, but Argentina were barely threatening at all to score a try, it took a copious amount of errors and several poor tackles in the space of one movement for them to score.

I can confidently say that in my opinion if the kick-off for Amorosino's (sp) try had been dealt with properly, even contested, then Argentina wouldn't have scored. Am I wrong to think that?

It cannot really be answered as its hypothetical. Argentina DID, however, change its approach in every match in which it was losing at the World Cup. It worked vs Scotland but didn´t vs New Zealand or England. Mind you, Imhoff was unlucky not to be given a penalty towards the end after he was tackled late and the referee let it go.

So, sure, had Scotland collected the restart then the phases that let to the try would never had happened. But, it was do-or-die and so Argentina would have spun the ball somehow. It doesn´t mean a try would have resulted or that Argentina would have won but the approach had changed to that of the bulk of the match.

Amorosino´s try was more of a surprize, to me, because as I said to my father who I was with ´why did this guy not start´. He was doing the same vs Romania in the previous match. Andy Robinson suggested that Scotland lost its focus but I simply thought Amorosino was too quick for Paterson and then with 15 metres to go had the gas a nd step to get passed Lamont, Morrison and Brown. As Paterson went for the tackle Amorosino moved his hip to the right and accelerated. Had it been Kurtley Beale I doubt anyone would say it was anything other than a great run.

Scotland do host matches in the rest of Scotland. Just not the big ones.

When they have played Canada and Samoa in the past it was in Aberdeen.

I don't really know what your expecting? because Murrayfield is the only decent sized rugby stadium in Scotland, 6 nations matches have to be in one stadium and as you said Scotland doesn't play many test matches.

If you look at the fixture list for all countries up till 2019 you will see that more of these minnow teams will be touring and having a chance at playing the big boys. Thats why they have gotten rid of the Churchill Cup.

The two matches at Aberdeen were successful and should be replicated.

Scotland´s problem is not the size of venues. It is selling tickets. Scotland struggles to sell out anything other than Six Nations matches. Its World Cup matches in 2007 vs Romania and New Zealand were certainly not full. Its triumphs over Australia and South Africa since then were not either and nor was its win over Fiji in 2009. The clash vs Fiji should have been held elsewhere and Aberdeen being an example. Glasgow has not hosted anything for too long.

In 2012 the old home of Borders played host to Scotland A vs USA A. It was a midweek match and entrance was free. Such a match is the way forward but as a full international. If Aberdeen can get strong crowds for Canada and Samoa then it can host this match too. The 2012 match vs Tonga at Murrayfield will struggle to get 20,000. It should therefore be held elsewhere.

So, if I worked for the SRU I would look to add a fourth test for November 2012 and have it as a midweek match between the games vs South Africa and Tonga. It would, clearly, not feature the bulk of the players from the South Africa match but would be identical to playing Romania on a Saturday and then Georgia on a Wednesday like Scotland did in New Zealand 2011. A player like Godman who is on the comeback would be perfect as would Weir. One could face each side.

I am sure that if the SRU wanted a midweek test against a tier two side that it could happen.

 

[Toko_11]

guys i don't know what's this is about. Its pretty simple if you look at what Georgian Rugby Union has planned for future.
1) keep sending youngsters abroad VITAL
2) Find more investments for national championship VITAL
3) with those investments build the infrastructure and Return experienced players at the end of their careers from other countries to let them play with the young guys that will take the same road VITAL
4) while 1-2-3 chain is in motion do everything to get the national side games with strong teams. HIGH PRIORITY
5) also try to get at lest one team on an international competition. HIGH PRIORITY
6* before 4 and 5 happen ask people to come out in -15c weather to support the team in ENC against Belgium and Germany (even though everyone knows the result). just so we can show everyone once again that we love rugby in Georgia -__-

Vital = If this doesn't happen rugby in Georgia is doomed
High Priority = if this doesn't happen we will always be stuck on this level and probably go down after a while.

also I've heard the arguments about Georgia not being able/expected to beat England.. ok fair enough but what do you think is more probable Georgia beating England, Scotland, Ireland ? or Ukraine, Spain, Germany beating Georgia ? I would say possibility of England losing would be about 100 times higher.
in fact i read this years ENC roster and we are sending our 3rd choice team on the games, GRU president straight up said that he won't be that disappointed if they lost ENC ***le its more important to get our young players more playing time. the statement which I and most of the Georgians totally agree with!

 

[welshglory]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2012/01/why_scotland_are_better_than_e.html
Pretty interesting reading. Perhaps we shouldn't just get rid of Scotland from top rugby?

 

[Croket66]

guys i don't know what's this is about. Its pretty simple if you look at what Georgian Rugby Union has planned for future.
1) keep sending youngsters abroad VITAL
Right, Nijaradze announced 5 new players in England next year. Young hooker Giorgi Lomtadze (born 1993) will surely signs to Montpellier too, maybe other players...

2) Find more investments for national championship VITAL

With the Armia Tbilissi (property of the governement), it's in a good way

3) with those investments build the infrastructure and Return experienced players at the end of their careers from other countries to let them play with the young guys that will take the same road VITAL

In 2011, Irakli Giorgadze (former Top14 player), romania-based players Bidzina Samkharadze, Lasha Tavarktiladze and Jaba Bregvadze (now with Toulouse); and n°8 Besso Udessiani (Federale1) returns to the Georgian championship; so i think it's in a good way too...

4) while 1-2-3 chain is in motion do everything to get the national side games with strong teams. HIGH PRIORITY
Yes, they NEED to play against tier1 nations!

5) also try to get at lest one team on an international competition. HIGH PRIORITY
Right, it's 6 games at pro-level for guys from georgian championship...

6* before 4 and 5 happen ask people to come out in -15c weather to support the team in ENC against Belgium and Germany (even though everyone knows the result). just so we can show everyone once again that we love rugby in Georgia -__-


Vital = If this doesn't happen rugby in Georgia is doomed
High Priority = if this doesn't happen we will always be stuck on this level and probably go down after a while.

also I've heard the arguments about Georgia not being able/expected to beat England.. ok fair enough but what do you think is more probable Georgia beating England, Scotland, Ireland ? or Ukraine, Spain, Germany beating Georgia ? I would say possibility of England losing would be about 100 times higher.
in fact i read this years ENC roster and we are sending our 3rd choice team on the games, GRU president straight up said that he won't be that disappointed if they lost ENC ***le its more important to get our young players more playing time. the statement which I and most of the Georgians totally agree with!

^_^

 

[Croket66]

Young back row Vito Kolelishvili signs a full professional contract with Clermont still 2014. With Kolelishvili and the possible signing of Basilaia to Edinburg, the next season georgians forwards would be full professional :
1. Kakovin (Brive/Top14) or Khinchagishvili (Brive/Top14) or Peikrishvili (Castres/Top14)
2. Bregvadze (Toulouse/Top14) or Natriashvili (Brive/Top14)
3. Jgenti (Montpellier/Top14) or Zirakashvili (Clermont/Top14) or Kubriashvili (Toulon/Top14)
4. Datunashvili (Aurillac/ProD2)
5. Mikautadze (Toulon/Top14)
6. Kolelishvili (Clermont/Top14)
7. Gorgodze (Montpellier/Top14)
8. Basilaia (Edinburgh/RaboPro12)?

 

[welshglory]

Someone should sign Ilia Zedginidze i was highly impressed with him.

 

[psychic duck]

Young back row Vito Kolelishvili signs a full professional contract with Clermont still 2014. With Kolelishvili and the possible signing of Basilaia to Edinburg, the next season georgians forwards would be full professional :
1. Kakovin (Brive/Top14) or Khinchagishvili (Brive/Top14) or Peikrishvili (Castres/Top14)
2. Bregvadze (Toulouse/Top14) or Natriashvili (Brive/Top14)
3. Jgenti (Montpellier/Top14) or Zirakashvili (Clermont/Top14) or Kubriashvili (Toulon/Top14)

there and a huge amount more front rowers going to be professional than that

Someone should sign Ilia Zedginidze i was highly impressed with him.

he's retired and now part of the Georgian coaching setup

 

[Croket66]

Official for Basilaia :
http://worldsport.ge/Read.aspx?news=30922&lang=2

Kolelishvili - Basilaia - Gorgodze, what a back row!

Wing Sandro Todua will probably play in a ProD2 side next year

 

[Toko_11]

So i just learned that our first team wont go to the summer tests in Canada and USA.. we should expect another experimental side. now this is real disappointment. Our first team should at least play one or two games every year.

 

[bushytop]

Very impressed by Georgia during RWC, particularly the nations' passion and appetite for the game. What are the reasons for not playing the first XV in all internationals as I genuinely believe that the current Georgia test side 1st XV is well ahead of Italy when they were introduced into the 6N in 2000?

 

[Toko_11]

Very impressed by Georgia during RWC, particularly the nations' passion and appetite for the game. What are the reasons for not playing the first XV in all internationals as I genuinely believe that the current Georgia test side 1st XV is well ahead of Italy when they were introduced into the 6N in 2000?

we can't get our players released from the top 14 clubs. and European nations cup is mostly for youth development as long as Georgia is concerned

 

[bushytop]

Shame... as if they were playing together regularly they would have a far better chance during world cups.

I would'nt be averse to a 1 team relegation/promotion between the 6 nations/Euro Nations Cup each year. Think its the natural progression to continue the development of rugby through out Europe.

 

[Seaton]

Shame... as if they were playing together regularly they would have a far better chance during world cups.

I would'nt be averse to a 1 team relegation/promotion between the 6 nations/Euro Nations Cup each year. Think its the natural progression to continue the development of rugby through out Europe.

Don't take it as me defending Scotland as we would likely suffer from such a system, but the 6N generates a lot of revenue for the countries involved, teams yoyoing between the A and B divisions would mean unions can't budget effectively, or if they do it would be on a minimal scale as the income from the A divison would grossly outweigh that of the B division whilst being the primary source of income.

It would mean reduced academy/ junior places at training centres and programmes that can be provisioned for, and any windfall for making it into the A division would have to be stringetly budgeted to be spent over a long period to prevent it all being spent in a rush of programmes which results in no consistency.

I would point you to the South African Currie Cup, at a lower level but there are massive lessons to be learnt from it. Once relegated unions have to cut back and struggle to get back to where they were, if at all for some teams. If it were not for the play-off system the smaller unions would have no hope of becoming competitive.

I thinking I am warming to the 7 Nations debate...

 

[alexxx74]

go georgia

 

[bushytop]

Would be happy for a 7N also but where does it stop?

If Rugby continues to develop through out Europe and the developing nations become competitive (enough) to compete consistently... how many countries could enter the ?N before it takes over the whole season.

Don't know what the answer is but nations such as Georgia and Russia in particular deserve to not only have access to their best players for all test matches but more opportunity to play against tier 1 nations. If they don't all the good work the IRB has done to 'sell' the game to traditionally not rugby playing countries will stagnate and recede.

Rant over.

 

[Croket66]

Georgia won 46-0 against Russia ahead 25 000 spectators today in Tbilissi
Apparaly, since Milton Haye is the new headcoach, Georgia backline is better than ever.
And he select some very youngs players like Hartpury College/Gloucester U19 centre Merab Sharikadze, who's played an excellent tournament.
Other youngs backs are actually in U20/U23 teams like David Losaberidze, a powerfull centre (110kg) and former number 8, actually with Pau.