Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I really really think we need centres who can pass. It's really quite helpful in finishing tries. Davies can talk all he wants about the lions being more clinical but we all know his passing is terrible. If he had a good pass on him he may have been able to ship it straight to Daly after that break. Difficult but from memory doable.

 

[Jakedood]

I really really think we need centres who can pass. It's really quite helpful in finishing tries. Davies can talk all he wants about the lions being more clinical but we all know his passing is terrible. If he had a good pass on him he may have been able to ship it straight to Daly after that break. Difficult but from memory doable.

He also nearly spurned the try I think, or maybe it was another break, cant quite remember, but he passed waaaayy too early to Daly I think

 

[Scotty]

Team i would like to see. Wont be because of tuesday game.
McGrath (goodscrummager, mako makes impact with sinks at 50 - 60 min mark)
George
Furlong
Kruis
Itoje
Stander
Tipuric
Falatau

Webb (less kicking, can snipe far better and ive seen against england what he and falatau can do off the back of a scrum)
Faz (think he is still the best option)
Daly
Teo (cant fault him for his defence, needs to offload more though when he draws the man)
JJ (davies had a great game but the gaps Davies went through JJ would find too and has more pace plus a good defender. Needs a shot
Watson
Williams (obviously)

Same back 3. Maybe north if the wingers are getting used alot its his sort of game he could end up having a blinder.

Owens
Mako Impact
Sinks impact
Henderson (covers flanker and lock)
O brien
Murray
Sexton
Nowell/north (can attacking winger as we have multiple FB cover on the pitch and daly covers OC)

Alot wont happen cos of tuesday and AWD warburton will both be in more than likely given whos choosing but i think thats our strongest 23 IMO.

Sure some of you disagree so go ahead tell me what and why?

 

[valley commando]

If I had my way it'd be Farrell and Davies but as is I'm trying to get a player who can pass in the centre without losing the crash ball 12 and while Henshaw's passing is serviceable he needs his 13 to be able to pass too. I'm definitely in the camp that says form is overrated when it comes to test matches and this is it in practice.

Farrell proved to be shite on Saturday, he was given the least marks from 10 in a couple of papers and I thought he was abysmal, also regardless of what other posters think you need a kicker that has a better % success than he does and when replacing Teo instead of being benched, as he should have been he was even worse at 12 than at 10, he must be dropped and replaced with Biggar on the bench.

 

[g6mcg]

I still have doubts about Farrell's speed of thought at 10. Perhaps he'd benefit from a playmaking 12 but not an option here. If he's not at 12 I think he has to be on the bench ahead of Biggar though, because Biggar doesn't have the distribution skills needed.

I'd be tempted to go

10. Sexton
12. Henshaw
13. Payne

Unit who've played well together and has the combination of a hard running threat and reasonable distribution. If Farrell goes to 12 I don't think there's a 13 physical enough to be the sole physical back (I'd have been tempted to try Henshaw there in the warm ups).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Farrell proved to be shite on Saturday, he was given the least marks from 10 in a couple of papers and I thought he was abysmal, also regardless of what other posters think you need a kicker that has a better % success than he does and when replacing Teo instead of being benched, as he should have been he was even worse at 12 than at 10, he must be dropped and replaced with Biggar on the bench.

A bit of an overreaction no? Off the back of one bad performance in his second best position and not being able to chase a game against the world's best from his best you bring in a guy who has done next to nothing in two years in his place? Form is overrated, pick your best players, Sexton and Farrell (as a 12) are two of them.

I continue to hear that the coach is the right man for the job and he's picking the right players but with Wales 7th in the world and England and Ireland 2nd and 3rd respectively, with Scotland 5th, at least one of those statements is wrong considering Wales have almost 33% representation in the squad and test 23 and it's shown with the Lions managing to improve upon Wales recent record against NZ by .75 of a point. This is not an attack on Welsh rugby, who have better players than their recent "hard to beat" form shows by the way, it is one on Gatland though who the more I think about it has made an absolute mess of this tour and better hope they win tomorrow otherwise it'll be a really ugly 40% win rate.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I love a good centre debate!

Pains me to say it, but JD has definitely been the form 13 on tour - but I also agree with Alpha that Henshaw and JJ just weren't given the chance to prove themselves. I feel JD especially was nailed on from the start. The two of them were both among the best Lions players at the weekend, yet still as a combination they're substandard IMO. If it was me I'd probably drop Teo for Henshaw, but I dunno, feels like too little too late

 

[Larksea]

I think we (NZ supporters) have to credit Itoje for the great job he did at the end of the match. He's 200% a starter as far as I'm concerned and, what's more, was hungry as hell to come on the field and play. He helped the Lions gain nice and clean ball, and was clinical during lineouts.

yeah but it wasn't always just jumpers getting in front. Throws were over and undershooting their target. Clearly an area the team will improve with more time together.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The thing is for me.

Is JJ really that much of a better passer?

 

[anderton46]

The problem with JJ is imo he isn't a bad defender, but JD2 is just very very good defensively. When you couple that with his ucrrent form with the ball I can't see how you can argue.

this game will not get won in the backs anyway. the backs in general were very good. It's the forwards you need to change, or at least the tactics.

AWJ out for sure. Furlong was really poor and should be dropped depending on how he shows up in training perhaps?

George is great no doubt, but i'd sub him for Owens a little earlier and Ken gets about a lot.

The back row though, is for me the key area. As someone else state we had zero affect on their speed of ball in the first half. the ball barely touched the ground. Toby is probably nailed on so i'd possibly look for Warbs at 6 purely for his ability to slow ball down, and possibly stick with SOB. It's tough. Either way i don't think it'll really matter though.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Watched the game several times now. One of the major differences between the teams was the individual decision making. AB players are a level above The Lions' players. Examples include Daly failing to pass early inside to Williams after receiving a cross field kick from Farrell. It was a split second decision, but those are the chances you have to capitalise on. Also, in the second half when Te'o has a two man overlap (SOB and Faletau on the wing) outside him and instead chose to truck it up the middle, only to lose his footing and trip - chance to get the ball out wide and score in the corner lost.

The ABs on the other hand - first try when instead of taking the 3 points Aaron Smith looks to his side and sees Taylor free on the wing, the ball is moved quickly through the hands until it reaches Taylor to score - 5 points instead of 3, which was then converted to 7. The second try - ABs win scrum penalty; instead of taking the 3 points which a NH side would do instinctively, Read still manages to scoop the ball up, whilst on the floor and get it to Smith, and ball is transferred quickly to Ioane on the wing to score. Another 3 points turned into 7.

It's just instinctive decision making which not enough of the BIL players have. It's why I think changing too many players for next week's game won't make a huge difference to the outcome; it's not something you can change in a week.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Farrell proved to be shite on Saturday, he was given the least marks from 10 in a couple of papers and I thought he was abysmal

Fly half has ordinary game behind beaten pack shocker.

Faz wasn't great, but Gatland's got more pressing concerns. Namely 1 - 8. Given how badly the pack was beaten it's odd that no sights have been trained on the forwards coach. Borthwick's got many merits, but there must be questions whether he's experienced enough for one of the toughest assignments of all.

A lot's been made about the ABs' superior fitness. This far into the pro era I can't believe that they are actually materially better conditioned. Is it just that they're better rested and less knackered?

 

[Larksea]

yeah I watched bits of that test again as a replay was on TV while i was doing other things.

That first try Aaron Smith had the ball and looked around. Had a look at Kieran Read who was down hands on knees and Read kinda gestured towards the posts smith turned towards the posts and then kept looking around and went for it without looking back for permission. Great vision, but it also required a couple of great passes and a very good pickup from Taylor. its pretty awesome for them to be able to back themselves in such situations. Great work from Smith, I honestly think Perenara is just as capable of such plays as well. Smith was awesome, I still think Perenara is arguably better.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Fly half has ordinary game behind beaten pack shocker.

Faz wasn't great, but Gatland's got more pressing concerns. Namely 1 - 8. Given how badly the pack was beaten it's odd that no sights have been trained on the forwards coach. Borthwick's got many merits, but there must be questions whether he's experienced enough for one of the toughest assignments of all.

A lot's been made about the ABs' superior fitness. This far into the pro era I can't believe that they are actually materially better conditioned. Is it just that they're better rested and less knackered?

Personally I just think they look fitter because their skills are better. Those sloppy errors with basic skills that creep in in the last 20 when you're tired don't happen, not because they're not tired but because their better at basic skills.

 

[smartcooky]

yeah I watched bits of that test again as a replay was on TV while i was doing other things.

That first try Aaron Smith had the ball and looked around. Had a look at Kieran Read who was down hands on knees and Read kinda gestured towards the posts smith turned towards the posts and then kept looking around and went for it without looking back for permission. Great vision, but it also required a couple of great passes and a very good pickup from Taylor. its pretty awesome for them to be able to back themselves in such situations. Great work from Smith, I honestly think Perenara is just as capable of such plays as well. Smith was awesome, I still think Perenara is arguably better.

Do you remember this back in 2014



All Blacks v England 1st test of the June Internationals. Its 15 all in the 76th minute, All Blacks have a penalty 39m out right in front. Everyone is expecting Cruden to line up the shot at goal, but instead, he takes a quick tap that catches England napping, and eventually Conrad Smith gets the winning try in the corner.

Shag was asked about that. He said he backed his players to make decisions.

 

[Scotty]

Assuming Gats won't deviate too much from his losing game plan I'd try and get the most out of it with

McGarth Best Furlong
Kruis Itoje
POM Faletau SOB
Murray Sexton
Te'o JJ
Williams Daly Watson

Mako George Sink Lawes CJ Webb Farrell Nowell

Harsh on a few players, very Anglo-Irish but you might as well pick from the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the sport if you can. It's set up to attack the breakdown with Best, has three class lineout jumpers meaning he won't struggle. Crash ball can continue but you now have a centre with the ability to pass and with the exception of Te'o it's the best players (a couple positions such as hooker and loose head have equal options) on the pitch for their position while swapping Daly and Willis because Williams is the better wing while imo there's little difference at 15. .

With the exception of his game plan my biggest Garland criticism so far is his management of his centres, he's played his best 12 and 13 in Henshaw and JJ completely out of form by lumping them in tough midweek matches with Bigger and Laidlaw and not giving them chances with good halfbacks.

Stander start for POM
Henderson on bench instead of lawes
Tipuric on bench instead od POM

But i agree. daly wing williams 15

 

[mosfeldt]

I really need think Stander needs to be sent home, picked up at the airport, tucked into bed with a cup of tea and a nice film. I've never seen a rugby player so visibly fatigued in the long-term sense, yet he still gives it his all. It beggars belief.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I really need think Stander needs to be sent home, picked up at the airport, tucked into bed with a cup of tea and a nice film. I've never seen a rugby player so visibly fatigued in the long-term sense, yet he still gives it his all. It beggars belief.

Agree 100%. The man's barely rested over the last 2 years and nearly every time he takes to the field he's the player getting through the most work. I seriously hope that Munster give him the time he needs in the upcoming season as I'd hate to see his career cut short due to poor player management. @munstermuffin would you be able to give any insight into his fitness towards the end of the season?

 

[Ground We Won]

Up the ABs. Hope they dish a right thrashing.

 

[Saint Matt]

I'm still worried about our midfield.

Farrell, Teo and Davies is too one dimensional. They're all looking for inside shoulders, none of them are going to isolate a defender or do him on his outside. Davies showed elements of that at the weekend but still not consistent as such in those terms.

Sexton, Farrell, Davies would have been my proffered option before the tour but they haven't played together enough. Probably an issue defensively as well against such a ruthless team.

I wonder about Jonathan Joseph but he's played 80 minutes tonight v Hurricanes.