[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[Mr.cyclopede]

XV de France : «La vidéo a été coupée à ce moment-là», Danty pointe du doigt l’arbitrage sur une action litigieuse

Le centre des Bleus a constaté que les images vidéo disponibles pour les arbitres ont été coupées après un déblayage dangereux de Pieter-Steph du Toit.

www.lefigaro.fr

 

[Joe 90]

Just in order for the youngest posters to understand why WC refereeing is considered an issue amongst French rugby fans :
- WC final 2011 in NZ : AB pinned down on their line for 20 minutes Mr Joubert never finds anything wrong, France lose 7-8
- Fast forward WC 2019 QF : silly elbowing by French 5 Vahaamahina, red card absolutely justified, no issue. France lose 19-20 to Wales at the very end. Videos then emerge of Jaco Peyper, the ref, doing the Vahaamahina shuffle with Welsh supporters in a bar, pint in hand, after the match
- WC 2021 QF, after a few debatable decisions by the official Mr O'Keefe, France end up losing to SA 28-29

You can understand why we French supporters sometimes feel we often end up at the wrong end of the whistle ...

Unless yr SA or NZ, don't bother turning up.

 

[Jer1cho]

Some of the salt lol. Not the refs fault France completely butchered two high balls. Not the refs fault Dupont got smashed, then turnover and Kolbe try. Not the refs fault Ramos had his kick charged down. Not the refs fault Jalibert tried to hug Etzebeth instead of tackle him. Not the refs fault France couldn't outsmart our defense with 14 on the field, scoring no try in the second half. Its like the Cueto 'try' from 2007. If decisions went differently, who is to say they know what the outcome would have been if the whole game changes from that point onwards?

 

[ncurd]

. Not the refs fault Ramos had his kick charged down.

You haven't been reading this thread have you?

 

[Jer1cho]

You haven't been reading this thread have you?

There was nothing wrong with that charge down, apart from the salty tears it generated.

 

[Wichita]

Unless yr SA or NZ, don't bother turning up.

England or Australia would probably disagree with this.
Still, there were lots of talks about refereeing tier 1 / tier 2 differently, but we sometimes feel we are clearly a Tier 1 nation based on results and nevertheless being reffed as a tier 2, with a few exceptions (Owens, Barnes, for instance).
There used to be some discrepancies between Top 14, Premiership Rugby, Celtic league and Rugby Championship in terms of refereeing. But now, there are so many players that are or have passed in the Top 14 that it should not make much of a difference.

 

[Batsumy]

XV de France : «La vidéo a été coupée à ce moment-là», Danty pointe du doigt l’arbitrage sur une action litigieuse

Le centre des Bleus a constaté que les images vidéo disponibles pour les arbitres ont été coupées après un déblayage dangereux de Pieter-Steph du Toit.

www.lefigaro.fr

So it says Danty has noticed on the big screen that the replay shown at one point was being cut short off showing Du Toit doing a Du Toit again on Danty

 

[ncurd]

There was nothing wrong with that charge down, apart from the salty tears it generated.

There plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. Which is hardly surprising considering how rarely it happens.

 

[Jer1cho]

There plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise. Which is hardly surprising considering how rarely it happens.

Plenty of evidence? Lol

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Plenty of evidence? Lol

If Erasmus was working with France, a video would already be online by now

Also yes, on this thread.

 

[Jer1cho]

If Erasmus was working with France, a video would already be online by now

Also yes, on this thread.

There is 0 wrong here in the wide angled vid. What did he do wrong?

 

[Wichita]

There was nothing wrong with that charge down, apart from the salty tears it generated.

Some of us think Kolbe might have anticipated his move.
But the main issue is probably that it was not even reviewed and there was no discussion between the ref and he TMO about that. I have been playing, then watching rugby for more than 50 years and blocking a conversion is so rare I am almost sure it has never happened before in a WC match. In such a high stake meeting, maybe a minimal TMO review would have been justified.

 

[Jer1cho]

Having the speed and acceleration Kolbe has is also rare. Very VERY few other players would have been able to do that, or even get that close. He even commented himself saying he knew there was a chance from having played with Ramos for so long.

 

[ncurd]

Some of us think Kolbe might have anticipated his move.
But the main issue is probably that it was not even reviewed and there was no discussion between the ref and he TMO about that. I have been playing, then watching rugby for more than 50 years and blocking a conversion is so rare I am almost sure it has never happened before in a WC match. In such a high stake meeting, maybe a minimal TMO review would have been justified.

A bit like the Etzebeth incident. I struggle to think of another ref who would shout down a TMO on such a big call. It happens but it really shouldn't. Definitely can't see Barnes doing it.

 

[Joe 90]

This notion of bias is very subjective. But what is clearly an issue is that there are obvious differences between the way matches are reffed and the influence it has on the result. If O'Keefe had reffed the Fiji-England match and Reynal the France-Boks match, we might well have a Fiji-France semi, just on account of the way the rucks were managed. Is that not worrying ?

A Fiji France semi could have been electric.....Overall i see little change......the AB's want to keep the Islanders back, so they will still play for the AB's, as the Kiwi's know darn well once the Islanders get their act together they can kiss goodbye to being Rugby Kings, they will be also rans, just like many other teams.....so all this talk about helping Tier 2 nations is just that talk...yes some improvements have happened.....but we still see the AB's and Aus playing with the best Islanders...funny that.

Rugby has two other huge problems, the laws are far too complex now ....I bet over 70 % of the crowd have no idea why most decisions happen, or what they are for....That is not how u keep fans happy. The people who run it are far too stupid to realise their shortermism is killing the game. Eg. the RFU have let two great clubs fold, just so they can divvy up the TV money.....both were crucified by Covid, they should have been given time to recover and could have done.....only fools are that short term.

 

[Batsumy]

Having the speed and acceleration Kolbe has is also rare. Very VERY few other players would have been able to do that, or even get that close. He even commented himself saying he knew there was a chance from having played with Ramos for so long.

Personally, re-watching it, it can go both way, there is defo a slight bit of anticipation from Kolbe and Ramos is slow as well in the whole process. It all depends waht is the specific rule there, is any movement is sufficient as a start of the kicker run or the kicker needs to be progressing forward clearly before the defender can run towards him ? Also I think Kolbe is already over the try line during the whole sequence. But really That is not the most massive issue with reffing on this game even though it could have been double checked.

The Etzebeth "interception" or the ball pushed out of the try area are much more important as they break clearly some very good momentum of the french

 

[Wichita]

A bit like the Etzebeth incident. I struggle to think of another ref who would shout down a TMO on such a big call. It happens but it really shouldn't. Definitely can't see Barnes doing it.

I agree 100%, there are sometimes endless reviews to check whether a pass is flat or forward on the halfway line...
This is a try scoring situation that might result in a yellow card or even a penalty try and there was not even a review.

 

[LIONSxv]

Motion doesn't matter for knock ons. Unlike the forward pass the knock is on the direction of the ball relative to the ground. If the ball is further forward than Etzebeths hand when it hits the ground or travels forward. Even by a millimeter its a deliberate knock on and a penalty try in those circumstances.

I've only seen the first angle where I saw where it hits the ground it looks like it goes forward to me. I've seen Etzebeth make a backwards direction with his hand which does show evidence in his favour. But the ball still has to travel backwards. I've not seen evidence it did.

Your confusing two different things. Etsebeth did not attempt to catch the ball or knock it forward. This is what us fans are used to seeing 99% of these matters. If he had just stuck an arm or attempted to catch it. You and others post are quite right it's a penality and possible a yellow card.
Your also confusing the term motion. I'm not talking about the motion of the ball but the motion of the arm. If the motion was forward i.e to catch or intentionally knock the ball on that is a penality and yellow. Instead the motion of the hand was backwards IE to slap the pass backwards. It's incredibly rare in games and that's why everyone is confused.

What was clear to the ref is that he legally intercepted a pass by making a backwards slapping motion. Unless the law has changed he does not need to make any attempt to catch it.
I would agree it's a silly rule, however the rules around knock ons generally are silly imo

 

[Jakedood]

My issue with it is a French guy makes loads of meters. Then SA get away with murder at the breakdown as the French secure the ball. This happened multiple times and means your not rewarded attacking play and ignoring illegal defense. Not exactly the best of both worlds.

This was my first viewing as well on a lot of french breaks, off feet jackalling was causing havoc to French ball in areas where Dupont normally finds massive space and the French capitalise. Vermeulen was a key culprit, but that's years of experience

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Just in order for the youngest posters to understand why WC refereeing is considered an issue amongst French rugby fans :
- WC final 2011 in NZ : AB pinned down on their line for 20 minutes Mr Joubert never finds anything wrong, France lose 7-8
- Fast forward WC 2019 QF : silly elbowing by French 5 Vahaamahina, red card absolutely justified, no issue. France lose 19-20 to Wales at the very end. Videos then emerge of Jaco Peyper, the ref, doing the Vahaamahina shuffle with Welsh supporters in a bar, pint in hand, after the match
- WC 2021 QF, after a few debatable decisions by the official Mr O'Keefe, France end up losing to SA 28-29

You can understand why we French supporters sometimes feel we often end up at the wrong end of the whistle ...

I understand you are mourning and upset. Re-read this in a month. Hopefully, you will realize by then that mentioning all and only the ref's mistakes that went against you doesnt demonstrate bias against France. It only demonstrates refs make mistakes.