[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

An interception doesn't have to be an attempt to catch though. A slap back is still intercepting the ball.
The referee in this instance would look at the intention and motion of the hands. Both clearly show a backwards motion
All the stuff about two hands and genuine attempts to catch is moot as they are two different issues
It's not a particularly good law but then the knock on law isn't very good either.

These situations get refereed based on outcomes though, and I think that's right. It's a high risk high reward situation - if you pull it off, you save a 7 pointer and maybe the game, and if you don't pull it off, you've stopped the opposition from a certain 7 points illegally. Generally, intent doesn't come into it if you get it wrong on the try line

This is all moot because the point is there wasn't any discussion about the incident. Perhaps if it had been reviewed and O'Keefe concludes that it wasn't forward or that he was happy with the intent, then fine - point is that the conversation doesn't seem to have happened and these big moments warrant better attention.

 

[Where's my lost flair]

Also, if someone can correct me, when Arendse pushes the ball dead, ahead of Bielle Biarey after a kick in the end-goal. It's not a 5m scrum because France made the kick in?

 

[Batsumy]

Penalty to France that one

agreed and it was at the 80th minute if I'm correct, straight in front of the posts.

I definitely would caution against thinking you're unique in this though. Two instances immediately come to mind that others talk about (regardless of whether legit, I'm not weighing in on that)
2007 France vs NZ - *that* pass.
2011 France vs Wales - the Warburton red card.

Agreed on this but the general french feeling is that we have been more often on the wrong end

The reality is that World Rugby is mostly anglo-saxon, no frenchies on the board and only 1 referee on the pitch so there is always a suspicion of a bias (not sure why we are such a non existence in world rugby, not sure if it is our fault to not commit to anything or world rugby is not making it easy for the french to participate more). Which in some cases has been verifed (lenghtiness of sanctions for french players for example, doubtfull outcome for some matches etc etc ) so this sentiment of unfairness is still very much anchored in French rugby. It has improved lately I believe but the show yesterday is sending us backward the impression is

Anyway, here we go again, the same old ending, the feeling we got slightly ripped off on few important decisions and we cannot do anything about it. This is a killer for a whole generation of french rugby players who have given a lot to be there and so there is also a lot of frustration. I guess the irish feels certainly the same right now.

 

[Joe 90]

If there was any "conspiracy" to manufacture an NZ/SA final they would've been put on opposite sides of the draw.

They are.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

For slapping a ball back, never new that was a yellow card offence ? I must be missing something here. Can someone signpost me to the rule book where an attempt to slap back an intercept pass was a penalty
I know the rules regarding knock ons and intercepts is ever evolving but I wasn't aware this had been changed?
Clearly BOK and the 4 other refs at the game + tmo were also unaware of this new rule

Attempting to slap a ball back but the ball going forward will be a penalty. You still have to make a legitimate attempt to catch the ball. Look at Aaron smith on Saturday. He stuck his arm out to block a ball as he was running back, it hit his fingertips instead of his hand so it went forwards. End result is smith gets sent off.

You can hear the TMO chime in about a possible intentional knock and BKO just keeps yelling over and over again that it wasn't so it doesn't need to be checked.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Also, if someone can correct me, when Arendse pushes the ball dead, ahead of Bielle Biarey after a kick in the end-goal. It's not a 5m scrum because France made the kick in?

Pushing the ball dead should but a penalty. That was the worst call of the night.

 

[Batsumy]

You can hear the TMO chime in about a possible intentional knock and BKO just keeps yelling over and over again that it wasn't so it doesn't need to be checked.

Thanks for that, I have not re-watched so I was unsure. Why BOK would do that ? It was fair to check at that crucial moment of the game.

 

[Joe 90]

mmh again, I do not agree, he did not reffed the boks on rucks, too easy to say that he just let played. when you know how boks are strong on the ruck, already letting play like he did, with clear infrigments was already giving a wild card to the boks. and I think also that there was a number of off-side that have not been penalised. for me, the worse and the most contentious/suspicious has been the very little use of the video reffing. The Etzebeth interception is certainly the most contentious stuff of the match, this is a try ball for France (to 14-0) and there is a decision that is taken quickly by I do not know even who... "nothing to look here" whereas we should have seen this with on the big screen and from any angle possible to make sure that the decision was the right one. But no, not been done, for me clear evidence of strong bias from the ref team



Few of the contentious stuff, I do not think the number 1 (the elbow in dupont's face) is too contentious, even if dangerous, it is done quite a lot and never really sanctioned, the hand on the ground before grabing the ball could slip through any referee but it was the 80th I believe and quite seeable and it was the accumulation of what the referee let through all the match on rucks phases, making it very avantageous for SA, but all the rest is. Yohan Huget who is commenting on Kolbe interception is saying that he saw Kolbe as a teammate trying this a lot of time and never succeeded once to achieve such a fit...and there suddenly he can do it ? He is clearly in front of the kicker, he knows he does not risk anything by cheating at that moment, I guess the kick would be just retried....

Kobe interception and Etzebeth interception should have been double and triple checked, thats it. And we can wonder why it has not been so....

Feeling is that we got robbed yesterday, simple, not the first time obviously and it is not only happening to us on some other occasions. I thought for example that Barnes on Saturday evening was bias towards the ABs for the first 15 minutes and it has been suficient for them to beat Ireland at the end

Again, good luck to our saffies friend, it was a tight contest and they end up on the "lucky" end

The Bias is done early, as u say in the first 10 to 15 mins, which gives that team a 6 to 10 point lead, which in tight games make all the diff.....and yes that Etzebeth knock on, would have been freeze framed to death if it was a tier 2 try.....it stank.

 

[Joe 90]

agreed and it was at the 80th minute if I'm correct, straight in front of the posts.

Agreed on this but the general french feeling is that we have been more often on the wrong end

The reality is that World Rugby is mostly anglo-saxon, no frenchies on the board and only 1 referee on the pitch so there is always a suspicion of a bias (not sure why we are such a non existence in world rugby, not sure if it is our fault to not commit to anything or world rugby is not making it easy for the french to participate more). Which in some cases has been verifed (lenghtiness of sanctions for french players for example, doubtfull outcome for some matches etc etc ) so this sentiment of unfairness is still very much anchored in French rugby. It has improved lately I believe but the show yesterday is sending us backward the impression is

Anyway, here we go again, the same old ending, the feeling we got slightly ripped off on few important decisions and we cannot do anything about it. This is a killer for a whole generation of french rugby players who have given a lot to be there and so there is also a lot of frustration. I guess the irish feels certainly the same right now.

World Rugby needs a real clean out at the top.....the Southern Hemisphere and particualry NZ have far too much say, they have wrecked the scrum and the rules are far too complex,......the Ref is far too important to the whole game.....

 

[Horacito]

Yeh I'm sorry, the match was lost in the second half, not the first.

 

[Wichita]

agreed and it was at the 80th minute if I'm correct, straight in front of the posts.

Agreed on this but the general french feeling is that we have been more often on the wrong end

The reality is that World Rugby is mostly anglo-saxon, no frenchies on the board and only 1 referee on the pitch so there is always a suspicion of a bias (not sure why we are such a non existence in world rugby, not sure if it is our fault to not commit to anything or world rugby is not making it easy for the french to participate more). Which in some cases has been verifed (lenghtiness of sanctions for french players for example, doubtfull outcome for some matches etc etc ) so this sentiment of unfairness is still very much anchored in French rugby. It has improved lately I believe but the show yesterday is sending us backward the impression is

Anyway, here we go again, the same old ending, the feeling we got slightly ripped off on few important decisions and we cannot do anything about it. This is a killer for a whole generation of french rugby players who have given a lot to be there and so there is also a lot of frustration. I guess the irish feels certainly the same right now.

agreed and it was at the 80th minute if I'm correct, straight in front of the posts.

Agreed on this but the general french feeling is that we have been more often on the wrong end

The reality is that World Rugby is mostly anglo-saxon, no frenchies on the board and only 1 referee on the pitch so there is always a suspicion of a bias (not sure why we are such a non existence in world rugby, not sure if it is our fault to not commit to anything or world rugby is not making it easy for the french to participate more). Which in some cases has been verifed (lenghtiness of sanctions for french players for example, doubtfull outcome for some matches etc etc ) so this sentiment of unfairness is still very much anchored in French rugby. It has improved lately I believe but the show yesterday is sending us backward the impression is

Anyway, here we go again, the same old ending, the feeling we got slightly ripped off on few important decisions and we cannot do anything about it. This is a killer for a whole generation of french rugby players who have given a lot to be there and so there is also a lot of frustration. I guess the irish feels certainly the same right now.

The Bias is done early, as u say in the first 10 to 15 mins, which gives that team a 6 to 10 point lead, which in tight games make all the diff.....and yes that Etzebeth knock on, would have been freeze framed to death if it was a tier 2 try.....it stank.

This notion of bias is very subjective. But what is clearly an issue is that there are obvious differences between the way matches are reffed and the influence it has on the result. If O'Keefe had reffed the Fiji-England match and Reynal the France-Boks match, we might well have a Fiji-France semi, just on account of the way the rucks were managed. Is that not worrying ?

 

[ncurd]

I don't think O'Keefe had the best, but he was consistent to both sides in what he let go. Tbh he let a bit too much go, but it did give us non-stop attacking rugby.

On reflection, I think S.A noticed this more and realised they could get away with more which is why people are saying he was biased. He wasn't, but S.A took advantage of it more and played him better.

My issue with it is a French guy makes loads of meters. Then SA get away with murder at the breakdown as the French secure the ball. This happened multiple times and means your not rewarded attacking play and ignoring illegal defense. Not exactly the best of both worlds.

 

[LIONSxv]

Attempting to slap a ball back but the ball going forward will be a penalty. You still have to make a legitimate attempt to catch the ball. Look at Aaron smith on Saturday. He stuck his arm out to block a ball as he was running back, it hit his fingertips instead of his hand so it went forwards. End result is smith gets sent off.

You can hear the TMO chime in about a possible intentional knock and BKO just keeps yelling over and over again that it wasn't so it doesn't need to be checked.

It didn't go forward though? Sideways at worst

I think the issue here is some posters weren't aware of the slap back /intercept rule. Their was a misconception that Etsebeth needed to have made genuine attempt to catch the ball. Which according to the rules he does not if trying to intercept a pass by knocking it backwards/sideways

Live, it looked sideways and on the reply it looked sideways I did not see if they checked if he was offside

The upshot of it all is that their aren't many 6 foot 9 players with both the athleticism to attempt a slap back and most importantly have an awareness of the rules. Most international locks, jump, tackle, push and carry and that about as much as their game IQ takes them

 

[Batsumy]

Yeh I'm sorry, the match was lost in the second half, not the first.

mmmh I have a different view, we lost the match in first half by having too much points scored against us (and helped in my view by some dubious decision et especailly that "interception" of etzebeth where we were really in a strong moment and position or what die_mole is talking about around that ball pushed outside of the try area by SA - things that could have been checked thoroughly but they were not)

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Took me all of 2 minutes to rule out a French try as well. France 2nd try France 6 binds onto Danty before contact and proceeds to obstruct Reinach as well if that weren't enough. Sanction should be penalty to SA. Instead Dupont takes quickly and France score in the corner. Just one example if you really want to nit pick. And even then I think it was v Ireland we ourselves pre-bound as well without sanction. Not fussed enough to make 100% sure but I do believe it was during this RWC either Ireland or the Scots.

In saying that I fully understand. We've (SAns) have been moaning about apparent bias/ inconsistencies whatever you want to call it since 2011 with Bryce Lawrence- still to my mind the most poorly handled match in a RWC. Most of it is knowing the laws well enough to spot non-calls and or poor calls. The rest is the actual reality of it particularly with media outlets highlighting everything and keeping it alive. Its what drives their numbers so fair enough. I've since the B&I Lions tried to ignore it and its apparent Rassie and co have also changed tack.

I don't even feel this was a poorly refereed game, not particularly. But the margins are small and the stakes high so I understand the French outcry at perceived bias. How to streamline the rules without taking the flow of it away or taking the competition at set piece or ruck away I wouldn't know so I've made a personal choice to just accept there will be swings and roundabouts.

 

[Batsumy]

It didn't go forward though? Sideways at worst

You do not know, I do not know. If you take the 5 meters line as a reference, the ball seems to go forward, even with a camera angle that is not advantageous. Lets hope we will have the right angle soon even if it will be too late

 

[Joe 90]

And I think the most important point on both of these incidents is that we can look at them at the time they occured in the match and see if Kolbe was or wasn't off, if Etzebeth did or didn't knock it forward. Choosing not to TMO them is the biggest issue for me.

Exactly......u either use the TMO or u don't......as of now, some situations get torn apart, others glossed over...which opens the game up to ridicule.....

 

[Wichita]

Took me all of 2 minutes to rule out a French try as well. France 2nd try France 6 binds onto Danty before contact and proceeds to obstruct Reinach as well if that weren't enough. Sanction should be penalty to SA. Instead Dupont takes quickly and France score in the corner. Just one example if you really want to nit pick. And even then I think it was v Ireland we ourselves pre-bound as well without sanction. Not fussed enough to make 100% sure but I do believe it was during this RWC either Ireland or the Scots.

In saying that I fully understand. We've (SAns) have been moaning about apparent bias/ inconsistencies whatever you want to call it since 2011 with Bryce Lawrence- still to my mind the most poorly handled match in a RWC. Most of it is knowing the laws well enough to spot non-calls and or poor calls. The rest is the actual reality of it particularly with media outlets highlighting everything and keeping it alive. Its what drives their numbers so fair enough. I've since the B&I Lions tried to ignore it and its apparent Rassie and co have also changed tack.

I don't even feel this was a poorly refereed game, not particularly. But the margins are small and the stakes high so I understand the French outcry at perceived bias. How to streamline the rules without taking the flow of it away or taking the competition at set piece or ruck away I wouldn't know so I've made a personal choice to just accept there will be swings and roundabouts.

Sorry, I just had a look at the action you mentioned, I do not see why you object to Jelonch binding to Danty in this situation (this seems perfectly OK to me) and the Reinach obstruction by Jelonch is very dubious, it happens 50 times in every rugby match and the ref has already seen SA 1 and 2 offside tackling Danty before the Jelonch-Reinach contact ...
I took me all of 2 minutes to rule out your ruling this out, mind...

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't think O'Keefe had the best, but he was consistent to both sides in what he let go. Tbh he let a bit too much go, but it did give us non-stop attacking rugby.

On reflection, I think S.A noticed this more and realised they could get away with more which is why people are saying he was biased. He wasn't, but S.A took advantage of it more and played him better.

Yeah, I think that's what Saulan was saying - I'd have to watch it again to see if I agree, but it's a very reasonable interpretation.

 

[ncurd]

You dont understand the rules slapping the ball backwards on an interception is not an offence. It's only an offence if you intentionally knock it on and it goes forwards. Or if was offside in the attempt.

He never attempted to do that and the motion in the intercept was backwards or the side

Motion doesn't matter for knock ons. Unlike the forward pass the knock is on the direction of the ball relative to the ground. If the ball is further forward than Etzebeths hand when it hits the ground or travels forward. Even by a millimeter its a deliberate knock on and a penalty try in those circumstances.

I've only seen the first angle where I saw where it hits the ground it looks like it goes forward to me. I've seen Etzebeth make a backwards direction with his hand which does show evidence in his favour. But the ball still has to travel backwards. I've not seen evidence it did.