[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[LIONSxv]

Demonstrably not true. He didn't try to catch it, he tried to slap it down.

Please point me to the law where you need catch an intercept if attempting to slap it backwards. Unless your claiming he was offside?

 

[Batsumy]

You dont understand the rules slapping the ball backwards on an interception is not an offence. It's only an offence if you intentionally knock it on and it goes forwards. Or if was offside in the attempt.

He never attempted to do that and the motion in the intercept was backwards or the side

I do understand the rules and I do know that it is not an offence IF the ball goes backward. Waht I'm saying is that it should have been checked and shown on the screen for everybody to see clearly the evidence of that ball going backward, for the clarity of the process decision

 

[Wichita]

Just in order for the youngest posters to understand why WC refereeing is considered an issue amongst French rugby fans :
- WC final 2011 in NZ : AB pinned down on their line for 20 minutes Mr Joubert never finds anything wrong, France lose 7-8
- Fast forward WC 2019 QF : silly elbowing by French 5 Vahaamahina, red card absolutely justified, no issue. France lose 19-20 to Wales at the very end. Videos then emerge of Jaco Peyper, the ref, doing the Vahaamahina shuffle with Welsh supporters in a bar, pint in hand, after the match
- WC 2021 QF, after a few debatable decisions by the official Mr O'Keefe, France end up losing to SA 28-29

You can understand why we French supporters sometimes feel we often end up at the wrong end of the whistle ...

 

[LIONSxv]

I do understand the rules and I do know that it is not an offence IF the ball goes backward. Waht I'm saying is that it should have been checked and shown on the screen for everybody to see clearly the evidence of that ball going backward, for the clarity of the process decision

Clearly you don't review your initial post, you state he need to try and catch it with both hands

 

[LIONSxv]

Just in order for the youngest posters to understand why WC refereeing is considered an issue amongst French rugby fans :
- WC final 2011 in NZ : AB pinned down on their line for 20 minutes Mr Joubert never finds anything wrong, France lose 7-8
- Fast forward WC 2019 QF : silly elbowing by French 5 Vahaamahina, red card absolutely justified, no issue. France lose 19-20 to Wales at the very end. Videos then emerge of Jaco Peyper, the ref, doing the Vahaamahina shuffle with Welsh supporters in a bar, pint in hand, after the match
- WC 2021 QF, after a few debatable decisions by the official Mr O'Keefe, France end up losing to SA 28-29

You can understand why we French supporters sometimes feel we often end up at the wrong end of the whistle ...

As do all fans. Far worse than any of those by some distance is having a try chalked off completely incorrectly in a very close WC final...

 

[BrokenWing]

Clearly you don't review your initial post, you state he need to try and catch it with both hands

Well he does if he doesn't want to risk a yellow card.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Clearly you don't review your initial post, you state he need to try and catch it with both hands

Please point me to the law where you need catch an intercept if attempting to slap it backwards. Unless your claiming he was offside?

Because you said it was a genuine attempt at an intercept - to intercept the ball, in the way the term is used, he does need to try to catch it.

He doesn't need to catch it with both hands if he is succeeding in palming it backwards. But it does need to be looked at to ensure he did succeed. I don't think he did but again it doesn't seem to have been properly checked.

Regardless of intention, if going for an intervention like that you put yourself in the position where if you don't manage to knock it backwards you then have to face the consequences of the law on that.
Similarly, players who appear to go for a two handed intercept but don't manage it will often be penalised because otherwise players could always make an unrealistic attempt at intercept and claim they tried to catch it, and attacking rugby would be dead.

 

[LIONSxv]

Because you said it was a genuine attempt at an intercept - to intercept the ball, in the way the term is used, he does need to try to catch it.

He doesn't need to catch it with both hands if he is succeeding in palming it backwards. But it does need to be looked at to ensure he did succeed. I don't think he did but again it doesn't seem to have been properly checked.

Regardless of intention, if going for an intervention like that you put yourself in the position where if you don't manage to knock it backwards you then have to face the consequences of the law on that.
Similarly, players who appear to go for a two handed intercept but don't manage it will often be penalised because otherwise players could always make an unrealistic attempt at intercept and claim they tried to catch it, and attacking rugby would be dead.

An interception doesn't have to be an attempt to catch though. A slap back is still intercepting the ball.
The referee in this instance would look at the intention and motion of the hands. Both clearly show a backwards motion
All the stuff about two hands and genuine attempts to catch is moot as they are two different issues
It's not a particularly good law but then the knock on law isn't very good either.

 

[Glassjaw]

 

[Batsumy]

Clearly you don't review your initial post, you state he need to try and catch it with both hands

Because you talk about an interception, which is not really on this case. But that just semantic, does not change the issue of not making the decision process clear enough for eveybody to understand why refs have estimated it was all fine on such an important decision. If there is clear angle that shows Etzebeth slapped it backward then great !

And on a more general perspective, I would be interested to know why we had a full NZ team on pitch and TMO, it would have been fair to have a mix of nationalities

 

[LIONSxv]

Well he does if he doesn't want to risk a yellow card.

For slapping a ball back, never new that was a yellow card offence ? I must be missing something here. Can someone signpost me to the rule book where an attempt to slap back an intercept pass was a penalty
I know the rules regarding knock ons and intercepts is ever evolving but I wasn't aware this had been changed?
Clearly BOK and the 4 other refs at the game + tmo were also unaware of this new rule

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Just in order for the youngest posters to understand why WC refereeing is considered an issue amongst French rugby fans :
- WC final 2011 in NZ : AB pinned down on their line for 20 minutes Mr Joubert never finds anything wrong, France lose 7-8
- Fast forward WC 2019 QF : silly elbowing by French 5 Vahaamahina, red card absolutely justified, no issue. France lose 19-20 to Wales at the very end. Videos then emerge of Jaco Peyper, the ref, doing the Vahaamahina shuffle with Welsh supporters in a bar, pint in hand, after the match
- WC 2021 QF, after a few debatable decisions by the official Mr O'Keefe, France end up losing to SA 28-29

You can understand why we French supporters sometimes feel we often end up at the wrong end of the whistle ...

I definitely would caution against thinking you're unique in this though. Two instances immediately come to mind that others talk about (regardless of whether legit, I'm not weighing in on that)
2007 France vs NZ - *that* pass.
2011 France vs Wales - the Warburton red card.

 

[LIONSxv]

View attachment 18177

Penalty to France that one

 

[Wichita]

An interception doesn't have to be an attempt to catch though. A slap back is still intercepting the ball.
The referee in this instance would look at the intention and motion of the hands. Both clearly show a backwards motion
All the stuff about two hands and genuine attempts to catch is moot as they are two different issues
It's not a particularly good law but then the knock on law isn't very good either.

We can all be opinionated until the very end, but the main issue is about not reviewing what is obviously a critical move, which can lead to a yellow card or a penalty try.
As you mention, he did not try to catch, he tried to slap it down, forwards or backwards can be discussed. Many have the impression that it was brushed aside very quickly by the ref. Maybe they are wrong and the TMO made an instant decision that will prove to be the right one. Maybe they are right and a more thorough review would have cleared the issue.

 

[LIONSxv]

Because you talk about an interception, which is not really on this case. But that just semantic, does not change the issue of not making the decision process clear enough for eveybody to understand why refs have estimated it was all fine on such an important decision. If there is clear angle that shows Etzebeth slapped it backward then great !

And on a more general perspective, I would be interested to know why we had a full NZ team on pitch and TMO, it would have been fair to have a mix of nationalities

We are going down the rounds of conspiracy again here with the nationality of refs
From all the NZs have ever spoken with favouring SA in any sport over the French wouldn't be something that would spring to mind

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

It's extremely tight, but Kolbe moves just before Ramos starts his kick.

And with the distance, I have big doubts how Kolbe could see the beginning of that move we all have difficulties to define replays after replays…

 

[Batsumy]

We are going down the rounds of conspiracy again here with the nationality of refs
From all the NZs have ever spoken with favouring SA in any sport over the French wouldn't be something that would spring to mind

No conspiracy, fairness

And you were the ones talking about the conspiracy of french TV producers and french rugby players in collusion to cheat not that long time ago on this thread no ?

 

[Wichita]

We are going down the rounds of conspiracy again here with the nationality of refs
From all the NZs have ever spoken with favouring SA in any sport over the French wouldn't be something that would spring to mind

You are the one talking conspiracy, national bias and foreign affairs
The discussion focusses on the action itself and on the way it was reffed. Nothing elese.

 

[Glassjaw]

Penalty to France that one

Should have been, yes.

 

[Gray_Mouser]

2007 France vs NZ - *that* pass.

That pass was forward, no discussion about it.

I think we need to stop whining about that loss. We were sloppy with the ball, particularly during the second half. SA got the ball back far too easily, and they didn't have to work too hard to score their first two tries.

Were some decisions questionable? Probably, but then again this is rugby, it happens all the time.

Oh yeah, and when you're 4 points behind and there is less than 8 minutes left, don't take the fu**ing 3 points!

SA played very well, and would be fine WC winners. I will root for NZ though.