[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

[ncurd]

At this stage if everyone starts combing every bit of footage for an infringement we will never stop. Was the ref perfect, no? Was the ref biased? Also no.

In the end it won't change the result.

I agree I think there were some key moments where the ref should of looked at it more with the TMO.

One was within minuites of the game and could of led to 14-0 scoreline. That's a huge moment to not be checked. And rightly is coming under scrutiny.

 

[ncurd]

Should add for avoidance of doubt if Etzebeth did knock the ball backwards its a superb price of defence and he deserves huge plaudits for doing so.

We the fans should know what he actually did rather than guess work.

 

[Jer1cho]

found this

kolbe charge

Still not seeing anything wrong here? Kolbe is lightning, Ramos has a slow action.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Still not seeing anything wrong here? Kolbe is lightning, Ramos has a slow action.

They also played together for awhile. Would probably spend 30 minutes a day taking kicks together. I'm sure Kolbe knows exactly when Ramos begins his approach.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Not against France per se. But yes, to some extent, reputation gets you some 50/50 calls. And I have not seen much home bias either in this WC.
I am ready to accept some teams play the ref better than others. But it seems to be an ongoing tradition for some of them, from fathers to sons, and in some cases, the refs are playing some teams better than others

The problem I have with this is that you present France as a **** poor side with no resources, hated by everyone who can't wait to lay the smack on them. I see a great team, from a rich country, that's hosted the 3 WCs. If we adventure ourselves into speculation land I am pretty sure the odds are against you. I see no reason for officials to be biased against France. I am open to evidence but such evidence needs to be presented. And no, the ref making a mistake is not evidence of anti-French bias.

If Ramos doesn't miss that penalty, the one he rarely does, would we be having that conversation? I don't think so. Ramos missed 5 points from the tee and threw a 22 drop-out out of bounds when possession and territory mattered. Ref had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that.

 

[LIONSxv]

he seems to be blending the forward pass interpretation of the motion of the arms mattering with the knock on law of the direction of the ball mattering.

The only thing that matters is what direction the ball went. If you try to swipe it backwards but it goes forwards it's an intentional knock on, end of story.

I'm really not blending anything haha. It's not my fault that members of the forum aren't aware that you can slap back a pass and isn't deemed an infringement. Posters are getting confused with 11.4 of the law which I thought most fans would be aware of ?

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

The referee would be looking at two issues here. Did the ball go backwards yes or no. Then what the intention of the player. I.e just sticking an arm out for the sanction. In this instance the ball went sideways or backwards so we don't need to look at the second part.

Lots of posters on here just simply assuming that you have to try and catch an intercept pass with both hands...which has never been the actual law.

 

[BrokenWing]

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

And if you go at it one handed like he did, it's generally taken by referees that there wasn't reasonable expectation.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm really not blending anything haha. It's not my fault that members of the forum aren't aware that you can slap back a pass and isn't deemed an infringement. Posters are getting confused with 11.4 of the law which I thought most fans would be aware of ?

It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.

The referee would be looking at two issues here. Did the ball go backwards yes or no. Then what the intention of the player. I.e just sticking an arm out for the sanction. In this instance the ball went sideways or backwards so we don't need to look at the second part.

Lots of posters on here just simply assuming that you have to try and catch an intercept pass with both hands...which has never been the actual law.

Gain possession here means gather the ball

 

[Batsumy]

.I am open to evidence but such evidence needs to be presented.

We are giving you a lot of evidences, there have been repeated mistakes from BOK yesterday and the worst were not even checking video thoroughly even if there was clearly enough to have a good check (just etzebeth interception and the ball pushed outside of the try area are largely sufficient to be checked as happening so close to try line and crucial momentum)

It was not one mistake, it was several and it was officiating the ruck in a way that was automatically advantaging the saffies with their heavy but slow pack slowing the pace of a much faster french forward pack

 

[ncurd]

And if you go at it one handed like he did, it's generally taken by referees that there wasn't reasonable expectation.

Yup how its been interpreted for years. Basically you need it touch a part of your body other than a single hand/arm.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Not against France per se. But yes, to some extent, reputation gets you some 50/50 calls. And I have not seen much home bias either in this WC.
I am ready to accept some teams play the ref better than others. But it seems to be an ongoing tradition for some of them, from fathers to sons, and in some cases, the refs are playing some teams better than others

I think you'll find we are relatively new to playing too the ref. Adapt or die as much as I hate it the margins are so fine you have to adapt to every specific referee.

found this

kolbe charge

This is precisely what we need. If I focus on Ramos and pause the moment he lifts his foot first time Kolbe has started sprinting and is just over a meter gone. Man, that is cutting it fine and I'd have to say I'd need better resolution to call it. To put it this way, going to review i wouldn't bat an eye either way so glad he got it- feel we are actually lucky as if the TMO goes in and needs to make a call under pressure I'm not sure he calls in our favor but its very fine. Probably kolbe's intimate knowledge of Ramos helps here.

 

[Jakedood]

Still not seeing anything wrong here? Kolbe is lightning, Ramos has a slow action.

I think this highlights it
So most professionals have a trigger movement, a step back before moving forwards to the ball. Kick chasers rect on that first step. I think it's perfectly timed I have to say, and anyone calling it clear cut would be incorrect

Upon the Etzebeth decision, I was one of the eejits watching live thinking his palm was backwards meant something. Even though the ball did bounce roughly a yard in front of where his hand made contact it seems. He went one handed at it to swipe the ball back, so it's a penalty infringement (in my view) and thus brings into questions the yellow card and penalty try scenario.
As most have said, the only galling thing about this was the referee shutting the TMO down, I've only heard Nigel Owens do that, and only when 100% sure, he knew the rules like the back of his hand. In a game like this, the TMO saying you need to look, you have to. That's a massive momentum swing, and several minutes later it's 7-7.
Were south Africa illegal over the ball more than France? yes, but they played to the whistle, pushed the BOK's limits here but clearly paid off for them. France weren't as aggressive in the turnover, which they could have been given how often BOK would be screaming at players to get hands off, roll away, for long periods of time. A more aggressive approach here may have served them well

That was some of the most incredible rugby I've ever seen in that first half from France. If they play that game 10 times, they'll win eight or nine. Unfortunately it just wasn't their day

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yup how its been interpreted for years. Basically you need it touch a part of your body other than a single hand/arm.

Only an issue if it goes forward though. I remember BO'K saying it went backwards and can't remember thinking it clearly didn't.

Certainly a TMO call would be a good idea in the circumstances. Then again, you keep hearing pundits moaning about TMO reviews and TBF it feels like half the time they get it even more wrong in any case so I am on the fence.

 

[ncurd]

Only an issue if it goes forward though. I remember BO'K saying it went backwards and can't remember thinking it clearly didn't.

Certainly a TMO call would be a good idea in the circumstances. Then again, you keep hearing pundits moaning about TMO reviews and TBF it feels like half the time they get it even more wrong in any case so I am on the fence.

Yup the only thing that matters is the ball goes forwards. BOK said it didn't, I remember clearly thinking it did.

Moaning about TMO reviews is for the previous game where it obvious Farrell caused a deliberate knock on.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

We are giving you a lot of evidences, there have been repeated mistakes from BOK yesterday and the worst were not even checking video thoroughly even if there was clearly enough to have a good check (just etzebeth interception and the ball pushed outside of the try area are largely sufficient to be checked as happening so close to try line and crucial momentum)

It was not one mistake, it was several and it was officiating the ruck in a way that was automatically advantaging the saffies with their heavy but slow pack slowing the pace of a much faster french forward pack

Really? You wanna go there, let's go there. I'll pick one piece of evidence you presented

Personally, re-watching it, it can go both way, there is defo a slight bit of anticipation from Kolbe and Ramos is slow as well in the whole process. It all depends waht is the specific rule there, is any movement is sufficient as a start of the kicker run or the kicker needs to be progressing forward clearly before the defender can run towards him ? Also I think Kolbe is already over the try line during the whole sequence. But really That is not the most massive issue with reffing on this game even though it could have been double checked.

Look at what it took for you to admit you could be wrong here. Even when cornered you make sure the seed of doubt is still planted. Phrases like 'that is not the most massive issue' as if Kolbe's block was an issue at all.
Sorry, but when I read things like these the words 'bias' and 'hurt' come to mind. I really, really dislike bias. So much that I cannot, I just cannot watch Arg play with Argentine commentary. Ruins it for me. In fact, bias is the main reason i visit this forum.
Well, when i look at what most people with no skin in the game wrote here, the idea that "France was robbed" does not top the list.

Again, you lost by one point. Ramos singlehandedly threw away 5. Why blame it on the ref when you've got a much simpler explanation at hand?

 

[Batsumy]

Really? You wanna go there, let's go there. I'll pick one piece of evidence you presented


Look at what it took for you to admit you could be wrong here. Even when cornered you make sure the seed of doubt is still planted. Phrases like 'that is not the most massive issue' as if Kolbe's block was an issue at all.
Sorry, but when I read things like these the words 'bias' and 'hurt' come to mind. I really, really dislike bias. So much that I cannot, I just cannot watch Arg play with Argentine commentary. Ruins it for me. In fact, bias is the main reason i visit this forum.
Well, when i look at what most people with no skin in the game wrote here, the idea that "France was robbed" does not top the list.

Again, you lost by one point. Ramos singlehandedly threw away 5. Why blame it on the ref when you've got a much simpler explanation at hand?

As I said, this is really not the most important issue this countered kick and obviously you chose this one. quite typical

BOK had a blunder yesterday and there is no bias or hurt involved there, just a simple fact, most of the posters admit that several actions should have been reviewed and those actions were at key moments when France had the momentum

But I forgot you were a troll, noticed that on some other post on this forum so please ignore me going forward, thanks

 

[LIONSxv]

And if you go at it one handed like he did, it's generally taken by referees that there wasn't reasonable expectation.

Where; is that in the rules ? And here lies the issue. It's not actually in the rule book. Perhaps they need to change the rule that you can't go after an intercepted pass with one hand. This would then not allow any slap back and clear up any ref/tmo interpretation.

Some posters seemingly think it's an actual rule it isn't. Others posters were earlier suggesting it should of been a penalty try as he no chance of regathering the ball. The problem with that position is that he doesn't need too, as he is entitled to swat or slap back the intercepted pass.

 

[BrokenWing]

Others posters were earlier suggesting it should of been a penalty try as he no chance of regathering the ball.

No, they were suggesting it should have been a penalty try because if he hadn't done it, the French would have scored.

No one is debating that he doesn't have the right to attempt to slap the ball back. What they are saying is that if he tries it and it goes forward, it's a yellow card for a deliberate knock on. It's a risk you take going for a ball with one hand.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

As I said, this is really not the most important issue this countered kick and obviously you chose this one. quite typical

Because the way you chose to argue about it is a clear and obvious testament to your bias.

One on hand you want to present it as a non-issue when people corner you with it yet still you argue about it and end up saying (paraphrasing) it's not the biggest issue, but it is an issue nonetheless. If you can't see the bias you need an optometrist.

But I forgot you were a troll, noticed that on some other post on this forum so please ignore me going forward, thanks

The only reason i am not replying to you in kind is out of pity.

 

[Atmavictu]

More than 2k tickets for the Arg ABs are now available...demand has really disappeared and people are dumping their tickets after Ireland and France failed to reach the semi...

SE have the best teams, but NE crowd makes the experience way more enjoyable when you are in the stadium. NZ and SA have pretty average supporters, almost no chants whatsoever. I guess Argentinas and English will be the ones creating a good atmosphere.