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[RWC2023 QF4] France vs South Africa (15/10/2023)

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It is almost always the same, very early in the game no ref has the balls to make a call than can decide the game.

But as a neutral (Italian) I felt he was very biased against France.
Thanks to mention that as a neutral, you felt he was biased against us, thats reassuring at least, we are not only imagining things,

That decision was not a red card, it was a yellow and a penalty try upon video review so not a final call, there was time for SA to come back so I still feel it is pretty damning his decision
 
No one ever thought this game was won beforehand, neither of Ireland, NZ, Boks or Fra ever thought this was won before it was played, for obvious reasons...
Some stuff is there, though. No great conspiracy, no underground moves, just reffing decisions that did not go our way. And if someone like Antoine Dupont, who is generally known as being fair in victory as well as in defeat, is ****** at the refereeing team, maybe there are some reasons to be ******.

Or you could take the view that you're not going to get the most balanced view when someone is highly emotional having just seen their lifetime's dream go down the drain. In that state all you're going to see is injustice.

For that reason I just switch off at the final whistle and never bother to watch the interviews.
 
Hmm. Poor angle but marginal enough that I'd concede in the context you'd at least want it checked. I don't buy clear bias though. Watching live I was fuming over the breakdown. Got the feeling that it was a free for all and being South African of course I was looking at the clearer coming in from the side etc. Also at the end I felt Kolisi had a text book pilfer in the bag but no call. I mean it's a penalty for us or for France. Not just standing around and refusing to make any call but I'm rambling now. I understand how the French must feel so I'm not going to push anything. It's a massive game with zero margin so of course anything and everything will be put under a microscope and I agree with a TMO referral should really have been made. I don't know what to say about it. Noone will ever convince me that Bryce Lawrence didn't rob us in 2011 for instance. So I guess I'm just going to be thankful we got the rub here whilst feeling awkward about it and have compassion for French fans. Perhaps a check could've either cleared it up or maybe even we go down 14 0 and 14 men then and who knows what from there but we'll never know. All I've learned is it's pointless and since the first B&I Lions test I've decided it's not even worth arguing or worry about the refereeing in general.
 
It's not the run up, it's the routine. Ramos moves his feet sideways before the run up, that's part of the routine.

A player can start the charge when the routine starts, not when the kicker starts the run up per se.
Yeah, I think it's one of those where the interpretation and the written law just outright disagree with each other.
IIRC Written law is "moves towards the ball" interpretation is "moves" - though there'd be some debate even then - Kolbe seems to go when Ramos tilts his head, but I'd think first movement should be of the torso/legs - but as it's an interpretation, it'll vary by different ref.s

But that is O'Keefe's interpretation, IMO it's close enough to have been checked, but not one to lose any sleep over (unless you're Ramos)
 
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It's not the run up, it's the routine. Ramos moves his feet sideways before the run up, that's part of the routine.

A player can start the charge when the routine starts, not when the kicker starts the run up per se.
So how do you explain Cruden's effort 10 years ago v Ireland which was retaken after he shuffled his feet?
 
So how do you explain Cruden's effort 10 years ago v Ireland which was retaken after he shuffled his feet?
Because "move" is a subjective thing I suppose.

The law needs to be a bit more descriptive, not that it happens that often.

If it was just move, the chargers could have just picked up the ball while Dan Biggar was still disco dancing.
 
Or you could take the view that you're not going to get the most balanced view when someone is highly emotional having just seen their lifetime's dream go down the drain. In that state all you're going to see is injustice.

For that reason I just switch off at the final whistle and never bother to watch the interviews.
It really depends on who's speaking, Dupont is very controlled and does not let his emotions dominate, hence the fact that most referees appreciate dealing with him (in opposition to, for instance, Sexton, Biggar or Farrell, who are much more more difficult to deal with, to put it mildly) . If he says what he says about the refereeing, I tend to listen to him carefully, because it is not posturing, he means it because he believes in it.
 
Yeah, I think it's one of those where the interpretation and the written law just outright disagree with each other.
Written law is "moves towards the ball" interpretation is "moves" - though there'd be some debate even then - Kolbe seems to go when Ramos tilts his head, but I'd think first movement should be of the torso/legs - but as it's an interpretation, it'll vary by different ref.s

But that is O'Keefe's interpretation, IMO it's close enough to have been checked, but not one to lose any sleep over (unless you're Ramos)
Its just another thing, how often do you see a conversion charged down? So maybe its worth checking.

Like basic stuff why the TMO exists and we've used for years. BOK just decided he was going to allow anything last night.
 
You really cant tell anything by those TV angles, however...

If my memory serves me right, the movement to kick can be in any angle and any part of the body. The law says 'moves to begin the approach to kick'.

In this instance Ramos first move is the hip extension and backwards lean, giving Kolby lots of time to make it. After this he leans forward into his first step, which if you consider the first move to centre himself, the lean forward would be the beginning of the approach, and Kolby is 10m offside.

Clearly BOK was happy.

I was more interested in the Faf penalty given away, never retreating inside from a line break with frenchmen outside lining up the try, I thought that might have been looked at as an intentional yellow.

With regards to Etzebeth slap down, sadly we will see passes far less forward than that given as forward, and passes far more forward than that given as fine (yes I put the SA pass against Ireland through analysis and it was +5.2m lol.
 
It's not the run up, it's the routine. Ramos moves his feet sideways before the run up, that's part of the routine.

A player can start the charge when the routine starts, not when the kicker starts the run up per se.

Just read the laws….

"…..until the kicker moves in any direction to begin their approach to kick".

So in my world that is the run up, even if the initial movement is backwards or sideways. What it wouldn't include is any of the nervous ticks, general foot waggling etc. Maybe one way of looking at it is whether the action gives momentum to the run up.

Or something like that.

Who'd be a ref?
 
My take is that (spring)BOK had a bad one, possibly erring on the 'avoid TMO for anything not clear and obvious' (which is possibly what he has been told to do) OR 'don't let the TMO have any say on the fate of this match' (which somw more egotistical refs seem to think).

For comparison, in American Football there is a well known pattern of refs letting more things go in the playoffs. "Let the players play" is the argument. Don't let big games be decided by some dude in a suit examining something marginal. I am not saying that is right or wrong and I have no idea if World Rugby think similar but there wasn't a huge amount of things referred to the TMO this weekend.

However, I am not buying favouritism. He was pinging Kitshoff for everything then fell in love with his replacement Nche. France would have been out of sight at halftime if they had defended properly.

At the time the second half felt weird, until I remembered how badly France faded in Dublin and the rumours that fitness levels in the Top14 aren't always the best (although I think that means mid-season due to the number of games). So I think France got fatigued more than the Boks and the balance of power shifted at the breakdown.

That said I do not understand how Japanese based Boks have better fitness than French based Frechmen. But then there was very little I understood about this unusual match and a guy like PSTD is renowned for his fitness. France could have done with better luck but they are out of the tournament due to three very soft first half tries gifted to the Boks.
 
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Hmm. Poor angle but marginal enough that I'd concede in the context you'd at least want it checked. I don't buy clear bias though. Watching live I was fuming over the breakdown. Got the feeling that it was a free for all and being South African of course I was looking at the clearer coming in from the side etc. Also at the end I felt Kolisi had a text book pilfer in the bag but no call. I mean it's a penalty for us or for France. Not just standing around and refusing to make any call but I'm rambling now. I understand how the French must feel so I'm not going to push anything. It's a massive game with zero margin so of course anything and everything will be put under a microscope and I agree with a TMO referral should really have been made. I don't know what to say about it. Noone will ever convince me that Bryce Lawrence didn't rob us in 2011 for instance. So I guess I'm just going to be thankful we got the rub here whilst feeling awkward about it and have compassion for French fans. Perhaps a check could've either cleared it up or maybe even we go down 14 0 and 14 men then and who knows what from there but we'll never know. All I've learned is it's pointless and since the first B&I Lions test I've decided it's not even worth arguing or worry about the refereeing in general.
Thanks for the fair assessement

I still think the free for all in the ruck was massively advantaging SA with its heavy and slower forward pack, BOK was authorising the boks to slow down the quick game of the french which was their obvious central strategy. The not called video review on the interception is massive at that moment, France is on a high, plays perfectly its fast paced strategy, they just scored a try playing fast, clearly that was the winning strategy to counter the heavy forward boks pack and we could have been at 14-0 against 14, nobody will ever know but from there, no try on high kick ball following the etzebeth interception and a possible 20 to 7 at half time, it makes a massive difference in my opinion.

So I will tell you frankly: we got purely and simply robbed yesterday, like your feeling about Bryce Lawrence in 2011. This is the clear feeling I have today, BOK did not want us to win that match yesterday, I cannot think any other ways seeing the different evidences and the way it was reffed. Why ? great question. I think first that the saffies played the referee victim in the build up week and it partially worked, BOK reffed in an advantageous way for SA like I just explained, the french could not adapt to that sort of game, they did not have the weapons for that but also thats not how you play most match of rugby nowadays, there are clear ruck rules and they were through the windows yesterday. Just saying "you have to adapt to teh referee, even if the referee is asking you to play football instead of rugby", it cannot work like this. And more largely, I also think that unfortunately, even if we have milked it a bit more in the last 10 years, we are behind the anglo-saxon teams in terms of our relations with World rugby, no french on the board, this board who is in charge of all match officials for example, BOK answers to this board and only to this board, he knows he will never have consequences if he has a bad match towards the french. If he has a bad match towards the saffies, there could be more consequences, he could be under pressure for the rugby championship and other southern competitions.

I know it all sounds conspiracy but at the end of the day, it is not, it is just human behaviour, pressure put before match, individual interests for later, a multitude of small things turning a ref on a night a one sided one. I do no think BOK has an anti-french bias, I think he has his own interest at heart rather simply. But at the end of the day, I do not really know what drove him to ref the match this way, to refuse to call for video refering on 2 important occasions where there were clear cases to do so and let the boks rule the rucks how they wanted

It was good to hear Dupont starting to open it yesterday in press conference, very rare and that was refreshing. I do not agree with all the ones who are accepting the fate of a badly reffed match, the other way around, I think we need to shout loudly, refs must be held accountable, there is too muhc at stake, I'm not too much aware if refs have reviews with World rugby about their matches, I hope they have. My feeling is that there is only a small numbers of refs who reach the international level and it looks like once they are there, they are not dismissable, they can do almsot as they please ..but possibly I'm wrong, I do not know the process
 
Thanks for the fair assessement

I still think the free for all in the ruck was massively advantaging SA with its heavy and slower forward pack, BOK was authorising the boks to slow down the quick game of the french which was their obvious central strategy. The not called video review on the interception is massive at that moment, France is on a high, plays perfectly its fast paced strategy, they just scored a try playing fast, clearly that was the winning strategy to counter the heavy forward boks pack and we could have been at 14-0 against 14, nobody will ever know but from there, no try on high kick ball following the etzebeth interception and a possible 20 to 7 at half time, it makes a massive difference in my opinion.

So I will tell you frankly: we got purely and simply robbed yesterday, like your feeling about Bryce Lawrence in 2011. This is the clear feeling I have today, BOK did not want us to win that match yesterday, I cannot think any other ways seeing the different evidences and the way it was reffed. Why ? great question. I think first that the saffies played the referee victim in the build up week and it partially worked, BOK reffed in an advantageous way for SA like I just explained, the french could not adapt to that sort of game, they did not have the weapons for that but also thats not how you play most match of rugby nowadays, there are clear ruck rules and they were through the windows yesterday. Just saying "you have to adapt to teh referee, even if the referee is asking you to play football instead of rugby", it cannot work like this. And more largely, I also think that unfortunately, even if we have milked it a bit more in the last 10 years, we are behind the anglo-saxon teams in terms of our relations with World rugby, no french on the board, this board who is in charge of all match officials for example, BOK answers to this board and only to this board, he knows he will never have consequences if he has a bad match towards the french. If he has a bad match towards the saffies, there could be more consequences, he could be under pressure for the rugby championship and other southern competitions.

I know it all sounds conspiracy but at the end of the day, it is not, it is just human behaviour, pressure put before match, individual interests for later, a multitude of small things turning a ref on a night a one sided one. I do no think BOK has an anti-french bias, I think he has his own interest at heart rather simply. But at the end of the day, I do not really know what drove him to ref the match this way, to refuse to call for video refering on 2 important occasions where there were clear cases to do so and let the boks rule the rucks how they wanted

It was good to hear Dupont starting to open it yesterday in press conference, very rare and that was refreshing. I do not agree with all the ones who are accepting the fate of a badly reffed match, the other way around, I think we need to shout loudly, refs must be held accountable, there is too muhc at stake, I'm not too much aware if refs have reviews with World rugby about their matches, I hope they have. My feeling is that there is only a small numbers of refs who reach the international level and it looks like once they are there, they are not dismissable, they can do almsot as they please ..but possibly I'm wrong, I do not know the process
Jesus h Christ
if the ***anic had you on board, you could've saved them from wreckage with that much water you're able to scoop out
 
Thanks for the fair assessement

I still think the free for all in the ruck was massively advantaging SA with its heavy and slower forward pack, BOK was authorising the boks to slow down the quick game of the french which was their obvious central strategy. The not called video review on the interception is massive at that moment, France is on a high, plays perfectly its fast paced strategy, they just scored a try playing fast, clearly that was the winning strategy to counter the heavy forward boks pack and we could have been at 14-0 against 14, nobody will ever know but from there, no try on high kick ball following the etzebeth interception and a possible 20 to 7 at half time, it makes a massive difference in my opinion.

So I will tell you frankly: we got purely and simply robbed yesterday, like your feeling about Bryce Lawrence in 2011. This is the clear feeling I have today, BOK did not want us to win that match yesterday, I cannot think any other ways seeing the different evidences and the way it was reffed. Why ? great question. I think first that the saffies played the referee victim in the build up week and it partially worked, BOK reffed in an advantageous way for SA like I just explained, the french could not adapt to that sort of game, they did not have the weapons for that but also thats not how you play most match of rugby nowadays, there are clear ruck rules and they were through the windows yesterday. Just saying "you have to adapt to teh referee, even if the referee is asking you to play football instead of rugby", it cannot work like this. And more largely, I also think that unfortunately, even if we have milked it a bit more in the last 10 years, we are behind the anglo-saxon teams in terms of our relations with World rugby, no french on the board, this board who is in charge of all match officials for example, BOK answers to this board and only to this board, he knows he will never have consequences if he has a bad match towards the french. If he has a bad match towards the saffies, there could be more consequences, he could be under pressure for the rugby championship and other southern competitions.

I know it all sounds conspiracy but at the end of the day, it is not, it is just human behaviour, pressure put before match, individual interests for later, a multitude of small things turning a ref on a night a one sided one. I do no think BOK has an anti-french bias, I think he has his own interest at heart rather simply. But at the end of the day, I do not really know what drove him to ref the match this way, to refuse to call for video refering on 2 important occasions where there were clear cases to do so and let the boks rule the rucks how they wanted

It was good to hear Dupont starting to open it yesterday in press conference, very rare and that was refreshing. I do not agree with all the ones who are accepting the fate of a badly reffed match, the other way around, I think we need to shout loudly, refs must be held accountable, there is too muhc at stake, I'm not too much aware if refs have reviews with World rugby about their matches, I hope they have. My feeling is that there is only a small numbers of refs who reach the international level and it looks like once they are there, they are not dismissable, they can do almsot as they please ..but possibly I'm wrong, I do not know the process
I'll never say we've been robbed, because it implies that an international ref is actually biased/prejudiced/dishonest and I do not think it is possible at this level. We have been reffed by BOK many times and I don't think the results are anything but balanced. O'Keefe is a francophile, speaks a decent French and reffed a few TOP14 games.

What can actually happen, though, is that the ref choses an attitude towards a specific match and tries to stay consistent during the 80 minutes, even though this attitude might turn out in favor of one team of the other.
Just a quick example : BOK was the ref for the France - Uruguay match 4 weeks ago. Uruguay is obviously not the same team as South Africa, but during this match, he was quite picky, especially in scrums and rucks, and as a result, blew his whistle quite often, resulting in 15 penalties against France and 16 against Uruguay. His attitude for this match was rather strict., 31 pens in an international game is quite a lot.
4 weeks later, SA against France, very physical upfront, lots of challenging rucks and hard tackles. Surprisingly, in this environment, he adopted a very lax attitude on rucks and tackles. In the end, 6 penalties against France who had significantly more possession, and 6 penalties against the boks in spite of a lot of defending. A very small total of 12 penalties, many of them jackalling. Same ref, French team on both occasions, but a completely different attitude, from very strict to very lax in 4 weeks.
I guess the French management team did not expect such a change in a few weeks.
 
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