[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[Jer1cho]

Certainly the best performance by England since that 2012 game. Apart from the All blacks no team has managed back to back 80 minute performances like that (Although I think we were close in 2009, but that was the best Bok team in history imo. England in 02/03 as well, which I regarded as their greatest ever team.) We will see what happens on Saturday, and if both teams play to the absolute best they can, i guarantee it will be tight.

 

[ncurd]

Yeah many are saying it England's best ever performance but then there was this game and infamous 6 man scrum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/2982490.stm

 

[Jer1cho]

Yeah many are saying it England's best ever performance but then there was this game and infamous 6 man scrum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/2982490.stm

Yep I remember that game. down to 13 men in New Zealand. Unheard of. That was a phenomenal English team. Everyone knew they would win the WC after that happened.

 

[MikeTheNative]

May has probably been the inform winger of the year so far, he's has managed to eliminate the weaknesses from his game and your left with a physical winger who is crazy fast. If picking a a joint team I would have May and Kolbe over Watson and Mapipi.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

The real question fans should be asking who would you rather have coaching?
Budget David Hasslehoff?

Or a man in both peak physical and mental performance?
Eddie-Chan

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I expect the reverse to be true on Saturday IE England were made to look awesome playing a very average and fickle 2019 vintage Aus and a beatable NZ had its worst game so far. England have not yet been tested so far this RWC.

Wait what? SA have been tested once this tournament, which was against NZ and they lost. This sort of become the "any team England beat were crap" mentality. No, they were not crap, we MADE they look bad. The Aussies against us were also apparently terrible. No, we made them look terrible because we got our tactics right. In the mean time who have SA faced and beaten? Italy, Canada and Namibia? Ranked 12, 22 and 23. England faced Tonga, USA and Argentina, ranked 10, 13 and 17. In the quarters you faced Japan, currently 8th. We faced the Aussies, currently 6th. Semis? A misfiring Welsh who are currently 4th and us facing NZ, currently 3rd but easily been the best team in the world. You then say WE are the ones that haven't been tested? Sure you have been tested against NZ and you lost when tested. You were then tested against a poor, injured and misfiring Welsh side and only just scraped a win by the skin of your teeth.

SA have been playing flat track bullies, putting big scores on the lower ranked teams but every time you've faced one of the better teams, you have ground to a halt. England on the flip side have actually played better against the better teams than we did against the minnows.

So to say that somehow we are in the worse position because we haven't been tested and to lessen the opposition we have faced to take away from the nature of how convincingly we won is frankly laughable.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

When SA fans think playing Wales is a test.

 

[Jer1cho]

When SA fans think playing Wales is a test.

Man I wish I could tag all the Welsh fans on this forum right now.

 

[Goodey]

So to say that somehow we are in the worse position because we haven't been tested and to lessen the opposition we have faced to take away from the nature of how convincingly we won is frankly laughable.

It is which is why I have to assume Stormer meant something else.

I can see some merit in the notion that England are yet to win ugly or close out a match like SA had to against Wales. That sort of thing takes a lot of tactical and mental discipline, which they might have to pull out to win the final, have England shown that so far? I'd still argue it'd be a bit of overthinking but it's not madness.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Last 4 years reads 3-2 in Englands favour (with a 1 point game in our favour last year and a 3 point one in yours). I'll admit you had our number before that for a very long time and were essentially our bogey team. You decade of dominance however ended in 2016 and the three games lead up to that read draw, 1 point victory and 3 point victory. Think your statement is a little overstated.

Please don't take the period under Allister Coetzee into account. We are a completely different team.

But what will be fresh in our minds is that game last year at Twickers with the Owen Farrell Tackle at the end of the match. And believe me when I tell you, that loss will be used as motivation for this team for this match. Farrell will also be a target (even though I doubt that there will be anything sinister about it).

For me this is at the moment 50/50. Maybe it's the 37 degrees celsius outside heat, but I just have this feeling in my nutsack that we are going to win. Don't know why.

 

[Reiser99]

The way I've read this thread over the last couple of days is that the S.A view is that across most positions they have the better players, England fans are overconfident and that the Springboks are being written off. However I honestly don't see that as the case. The posters who are predicting the biggest England wins are mostly non-English contributors. I feel that there are a few Springbok fans here basically saying their team is better than England and that how they've played in the world cup is irrelevant and so are going to win, but also keep saying that they are the underdogs and trying to make out they aren't favourites. Bit confusing tbh. If anything for me S.A fans are the ones guilty of overconfidence.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Is anyone from SA actually going to argue the toss? You guys seam to just be accepting the premise that England are the better team and countering 'well it'll be decided on the day'. No **** but I'd actually be trying to work out how SA would win and bigging them up.

Apparently it's much more fun to get all butthurt by anything other than effusive praise.

I CBA to reread the whole thread, but based on my recollection, I would refute any suggestion that any England supporters are being underestimating the quality of the South African team. Pretty much all of the negativity I've seen from England supporters have been pointing out the folly in some pretty flimsy attempts to big up the South African team.

FWIW, I think England win the match 70% of the time (so I'm 5% more confident in their chances than the markets). Everything good about England has been pretty well documented apart maybe from the significance of the extra day turnaround. On the down side, the injury / fitness concerns are a worry, as is the possibile mental hangover of the New Zealand match and the fact that South Africa pose a different kind of challenge than England have overcome so far. South Africa's strengths and weaknesses have alse been pretty well documented. I never know how much to read in to form, but you'd need to be a very good spin doctor to argue that whatever advantage it affords isn't with England.

 

[ncurd]

Please don't take the period under Allister Coetzee into account. We are a completely different team.

But what will be fresh in our minds is that game last year at Twickers with the Owen Farrell Tackle at the end of the match. And believe me when I tell you, that loss will be used as motivation for this team for this match. Farrell will also be a target (even though I doubt that there will be anything sinister about it).

For me this is at the moment 50/50. Maybe it's the 37 degrees celsius outside heat, but I just have this feeling in my nutsack that we are going to win. Don't know why.

I happily call it a 2-2 draw then but that does mean taking out our strongest period under EJ so we can't completely discount it.

If you need the extra motivation of Mr. No Arms I'd worry, its a sodding world cup final you should be motivated enough as it is.


Well at least the 37 degree heat explains why you've all gone mad and think you'll win

 

[MarkyH]

Such awful arguments. So much saltiness. Owen Farrell is a thug, lets target him maturity. Jonny May is rubbish. England have only beat awful teams, they haven't been tested. Ford vs Farrell again. England are arrogant, SA are arrogant. SA top scorers etc etc Namibia Canada etc etc..

The only team that's had the beating of us in the last 4/8 years, or forever, is New Zealand. Yes, we've lost matches, but the only team we would lose consistently to would be them. And we've beaten them, remember, last week. Don't do them a disservice by saying they were a non vintage NZ team, they beat SA ffs England were the better team last weekend, by far.

Anyway....

Both teams are excellent. England have played better Rugby in the tournament, SA look like a team who know how to win massive test matches. Our recent results are mixed, with the caveat that 2 of our defeats after fast starts where at altitude. But we were awful at Twickenham in the Autumn and SA should of won really (ignoring the Farrell saltiness) if they had a functioning line out that day. They were far the better team.

Can we start a new match thread on the match day?

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Well as much as the South Africans dislike him I reckon Garces is as good a ref as they could wish for.

In attack England's game plan 100% relies on quick ball. Garces allows the longest contest at the ruck of any of the premier refs. Turnovers are not likely as the clear out will be allowed to ensure that it's virtually impossible to win one. PSDT will just hang around in the ruck area (semi legally) for as long as humanly possible. Ben Youngs will flap his arms about for a bit and then we'll be looking at running into a set defensive line over and over and over. The best way to counter that is probably to go to the air. But that always feels like a 50/50 option to me. England would be more effective ball in hand.

Despite the chat on this thread about South Africa changing tactics for the final in my view this is supremely unlikely. Power and territory to get the scoreboard going, get ahead and then suffocate. The South Africans know their defence is very good and won't fear England running into it.

 

[ncurd]

In attack England's game plan 100% relies on quick ball.
*snip*
Ben Youngs will flap his arms about for a bit and then we'll be looking at running into a set defensive line over and over and over.

SA greatest asset on the pitch will be Youngs. If a competent Scrum Half gets on they are ducked

Anyone willing to smash in Youngs' knee Tonia Harding style?

 

[MarkyH]

Look, I think this game is going to be tight, and I'm dead nervous like. But I think Englands prep has always been NZ in Semi, SA in the final. And we've got an extra day to rest and prepare. Yes, that's arrogance, but this is what EJ has been planning for since day 1, he's never stopped going on about it in fact.

I'm not saying SA haven't prepared before people bite. But most people would've expected a SA NZ final. SA have their game plan and they believe in it, which makes the game equal in my eyes. England have a much more varied game plan, and that means more opportunity to make mistakes or question what you're doing.

 

[Jer1cho]

There are far too many would of could of and should of in this thread. It's could have should have and would have. FFS!

 

[Da Grappla]

Post 50:00 Springbok team is way better than pre 50:00, many of you wouldn't agree but others will.

Hoping to see the Real Deal on the pitch, and the Springboks to win it but yeah, we all know England's gonna be crowned, and very deservingly

 

[BakkiesBokke]

I reckon England will beat us. It is England's to lose more than anything. I am already overjoyed that the Boks are back. In the unlikely event that we pull off victory, I will be ecstatic.