[RWC2019][The Final] England vs. South Africa (02/11/2019)

[ncurd]

Yeah you have the backs, even though I think De Allende has been better than Farrel, and Kolbe is also right up there. We have the best tight 5 in the world, and our loosies are no pushovers, even though everyone is one the England back row bandwagon. I definitely think England have the better side overall, make no mistake, but the way some people are speaking it's as if it's men against boys. Which I disagree with.

We were talking attacking prowess not defensive.

And whilst thinking of Cunderhill gives me an almighty chubby I've been saying all thread that a defensive arm wrestle is not the game that suits England.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Backrow battle will be immense - think we've got the edge at the turnover but you Siya/PSDT will hit anything that moves will full force until the final whistley. Massive workhorses.

Crazy to think Curry was only 19 when he played on the SA tour - I remember the battle between him and Siya Kolisi being quality.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

The reality is in a combined team of last week starting 15 who out the backs would be selected?

Faf and le Roux. You'd definitely take Ford, Farrell, Manu, May & Watson over their SA counterparts.

Then when you get to the forwards, Englands front row do things no fatty has any right to do. With Billy being a great option at 8.


Look its not dismissing SA capability I just think on paper England's is better.

Good thing for us is the ***le isn't decided by England playing NZ and us playing Wales last weekend!

 

[ncurd]

Good thing for us is the ***le isn't decided by England playing NZ and us playing Wales last weekend!

Is anyone from SA actually going to argue the toss? You guys seam to just be accepting the premise that England are the better team and countering 'well it'll be decided on the day'. No **** but I'd actually be trying to work out how SA would win and bigging them up.

 

[Cooper]

This is really tough to pick who I favour in this game (want to win). I really like what both teams have been doing the last 2 years (well 4 years for England). The rugby they are playing is brilliant.

Rassie's turn around with South Africa is remarkable after they lost to us (NZ) 57-0 a mere 2 years ago! Even if they got on the right side of the draw after losing the opener, they deserve to be where they are, you can only beat who's in front of you and they held their nerve to navigate a tricky semi-final.

Eddie Jones has been building something pretty special since he was hired. I look back and remember that period they won 18 games in a row and I knew something big was coming in 2019, even if there were some wobbles along the way. England's semi-final performance vs us was the best performance and most complete performance I have seen from a rugby team since the 2015 final.

So given some of the results of the tournament you'd say England are clear favourites, but I'm not sure that's the case if you look at it a little deeper.

South Africa have the forwards to compete better than what we did vs England. England won't get the same easy possession they enjoyed vs us and their backline will be asked to do more. But South Africa also have good defence in this area too.

Personally I think South Africa are better equip to deal with this England team than we are, so I'm definitely expecting a closer game than our semi-final with them.

Overall I think England still have just a little bit more quality around the park to edge this, but it's going to be some arm wrestle, I can't wait to watch it.

Good luck to both teams!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Backrow battle will be immense - think we've got the edge at the turnover but you Siya/PSDT will hit anything that moves will full force until the final whistley. Massive workhorses.

Crazy to think Curry was only 19 when he played on the SA tour - I remember the battle between him and Siya Kolisi being quality.

Even crazier that Curry was watching the last World Cup in his school's sixth form common room.

 

[Tayga]

both are great players in their different ways and England are blessed to have them both - Ford is on top of his game and yes he did make 15 tackles in the last game - but this is a World Cup final and the game can turn on small margins. If we dominate the Bokks up

Ford has been targetted in every single professional match he's ever played in (242).
Unless you can find another example, it's worked once, and even then there were mitigating circumstances (1).
He is the most successful international FH on defence this year.

Dropping him because we're worried about his defence is simply insanity.
Which is not to say that Eddie won't drop him, but he won't for those reasons.


Ford being a weak link in defence is a myth - pure and simple.
FTR:
Ford being poor behind a beaten pack is a myth - pure and simple.
Ford being a poor place-kicker is a muth - pure an simple.

Anyone wanting to drop Ford using these arguments (absent specific, well researched claims) can simply be discounted quite honestly, we have enough data points now to know that those fears are simply not based on objective reality.

I don't know th

Well De Allende targeted Biggar with great effect and gained a lot of meters. And De Allende has this knack of not going to ground easily and even at times able to break a tackle. He did this against Wales and Japan. He has been doing this in a couple of tests in the past too. A couple of years ago he did it against NZ when he was up against Crotty IIRC.

I think Pollard and De Allende would target this channel, but also Farrell. Farrell seems to miss more tackles than Ford. And we have some unfinished business with Mr. Farrell.

but Snyman, Kitshoff, Marx and Kolisi are great at offloading. Oh and Lood.

Yes England are lucky to have them both - stats as you know can be very misleading - I think that if you carefully review footage you will find that Ford is knocked back in the tackle more often than not and does concede the gain line ( he is probably the only guy in our team to do so given how unbelievable our first up tackling has been in this tournament)
- Farrell on the other hand ( who is less offensively talented than Ford in my view as a fly half) NEVER EVER takes a backward step - he does miss from time to time and he does sometimes go in too high but he -like the rest of the team - have been incredibly disciplined.
So yes you can quote " quantitative tackle stats " but that does not reflect the underlying quality and result of the gain line collisions. Sam Underhill's added value I would argue lies in the quality of his dominant tackles just as much as their number.
One of The characteristic Features of this England side is the amount of dominant tackles they make and the number of players that chip in - Ford defensively will be seen by the Boks as one of the few things that they can target Because they will know that this England side has very very few chunks in its armour.
It would be very very harsh to "drop" ( if that is the right word) Ford to the bench but I think it is the logical call for this game in view of the likely way the Bokks are going to play ( Route 1) and I reckon Eddie May very well make this very controversial call -

Notwithstanding this, I still think we will have too much for the Bokks and I think that we will win by 10 points.
I called the Aussie and Kiwi by just 1 score so WTFDIK !

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think we've shown anywhere near the consistency to be considered strong favourites.
If you look at solely the quarters/semis then I can understand us being favourites.
If you look at the rest of 2019 then it becomes a bit harder to argue.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Post NZ game I was feeling confident. But I know as the week progresses that confidence will start to ebb. I do think this England side are better than the 2007, which felt more like it was cobbled together from the remnants of the 2003 RWC winning team. SA definitely deserved to win that one. But I think that 2007 Bok team was better than this 2019 vintage.

it'll be close, but I think England by 5 points.

 

[Bull]

The reality is in a combined team of last week starting 15 who out the backs would be selected?

Faf and le Roux. You'd definitely take Ford, Farrell, Manu, May & Watson over their SA counterparts.

Then when you get to the forwards, Englands front row do things no fatty has any right to do. With Billy being a great option at 8.


Look its not dismissing SA capability I just think on paper England's is better.

Unfortunately, Pollard has been thrust into a game plan not allowing or affording him to play his natural game. One on one I would put money on it that he is a better player than Ford. DDE and Farrell are on par when Damian is on form he edges Farrell. No argument with manu, I don't rate Am at all. Kolbe is back so I would take him over May, Watson over Mapimpi, a prop at 15 is better than Willie.

 

[Hydraulxx]

Is anyone from SA actually going to argue the toss? You guys seam to just be accepting the premise that England are the better team and countering 'well it'll be decided on the day'. No **** but I'd actually be trying to work out how SA would win and bigging them up.

We are a realistic bunch, we know we have a chance, we know we can win but we also know of the weaknesses in the team and how poor the games have looked, our forwards have lead the way for us with faf and willie struggling. Hence England are favourites based on performances this RWC.

If we can remove all our handling issues and the out of form players pitch this game then we can definitely win

 

[Jer1cho]

Is anyone from SA actually going to argue the toss? You guys seam to just be accepting the premise that England are the better team and countering 'well it'll be decided on the day'. No **** but I'd actually be trying to work out how SA would win and bigging them up.

We just never know. Last year we lost 32-19 to Argentina, and had 0 hope of beating NZ in Wellington. Then we somehow scored 36 points and scraped it. First time a team had beaten NZ in NZ since we did it in 2009. We went 24-3 down to England in that tour, and wrote off the team before roaring back and winning. This Bok team might have played predictable rugby so far, but on the day, anything goes with us.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Is anyone from SA actually going to argue the toss? You guys seam to just be accepting the premise that England are the better team and countering 'well it'll be decided on the day'. No **** but I'd actually be trying to work out how SA would win and bigging them up.

Is there really a point to do the match-ups? I mean the players in each position are vastly different than their counterpart, and we don't even know who is going to start or not.

I personally think Kitshoff and Beast are better, so too is Marx than George. Vincent Koch is probably the most underrated tighthead in the game, and his inside knowledge of his Sarries teammates will be extremely valuable.

RG Snyman, Lood and Etzebeth are all World Class locks, and not many locks match them, although Itoje and Kruis is with them in that bracket. Lawes for me is the same as Mostert.

Nobody IMHO is better than PSDT. and Vermeulen and Vunipola is also probably in the same boat, although Billy tends to disappear in the background when he plays against us. Kolisi and Curry are vastly different, so I wouldn't even dare to compare them with each other, but Siya's leadership ability is something that is very critical to our success. I'll take Faf, Herschell and Reinach over Youngs everyday and twice on saturdays.

Pollard and Ford. I'd take Pollard. His BMT is awesome and he has shown that if he wants to, that he can dismantle a team all on his own. DDA and Farrell. Farrell probably gets the nod because he can kick at goal. Am and Tuilagi. Manu is just a step above, pity Kriel got injured. Kolbe vs. May, both carrying ****les, but I'll take Kolbe all the time, his heart alone is what give me hope that we can win. Mapimpi and Watson, for me equal. Willie and Daly, play Rassie Roulette and take them both out.

 

[ncurd]

Is there really a point to do the match-ups?

Kolbe vs. May, both carrying ****les, but I'll take Kolbe all the time, his heart alone is what give me hope that we can win.

What else is there to talk about?

On this Johnny May is probably the best wing in the world right now in the past 2 years he's score 17 try's (or 85 points) this is to Kolbe's 7 (35 points)....22 matches V 13 so ratio'd out 0.77 V 0.53 strike rate.

Sorry May makes the current world XV and the only Englishmen I would of said certainly did so pre-tournament.

 

[Jer1cho]

The thing I love about May is he attacks space and backs his pace. He knows how fast he is and uses that to his advantage. I always like that in wingers. Would be an interesting foot race between him and Mapimpi I reckon. Have only seen May beaten for pace once by Luke Morahan. Also, Mapimpi so far is 13 tries in 12 games.

 

[Kapa O Pango]

Tasty forward battle this weekend

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

What else is there to talk about?

On this Johnny May is probably the best wing in the world right now in the past 2 years he's score 17 try's (or 85 points) this is to Kolbe's 7 (35 points)....22 matches V 13 so ratio'd out 0.77 V 0.53 strike rate.

Sorry May makes the current world XV and the only Englishmen I would of said certainly did so pre-tournament.

I rate Kolbe just higher than May. May's faster but after that Kolbe is a better defender, better in the air (I know May's very good in these areas now too but Kolbe's on another level) and has much better footwork. They're the two best wingers in the world by a distance though IMO.

 

[TRF_heineken]

What else is there to talk about?

On this Johnny May is probably the best wing in the world right now in the past 2 years he's score 17 try's (or 85 points) this is to Kolbe's 7 (35 points)....22 matches V 13 so ratio'd out 0.77 V 053 strike rate.

Sorry May makes the current world XV and the only Englishmen I would of said certainly did so pre-tournament.

apples and oranges. But if we look at stats. lets use Rugbypass' stats for these 2 guys:


Johnny May
Total Games: 2019 14
201810

Minutes Played: 2019 626
2018 766

Tries scored: 2019 10
2018 8

Metres gained: 2019 723
2018 729

Runs: 2019 127
2018 100

Defenders beaten: 2019 39
2018 32

Clean Breaks: 2019 23
2018 21

Tackles made: 2019 61
2018 41

Tackles Missed: 2019 9
2018 11

Turnovers won: 2019 3

Turnovers conceded: 2019 16
2018 14

Cheslin Kolbe
Total Games: 2019 8
2018 4

Minutes Played: 2019 121
2018 247

Tries scored: 2019 3
2018 2

Metres gained: 2019 390
2018 118

Runs: 2019 39
2018 16

Defenders beaten: 2019 22
2018 7

Clean Breaks: 2019 7
2018 3

Tackles made: 2019 55
2018 27

Tackles Missed: 2019 7
2018 9

Turnovers won: 2019 4

Turnovers conceded: 2019 6
2018 2

 

[Jer1cho]

I rate Kolbe just higher than May. May's faster but after that Kolbe is a better defender, better in the air (I know May's very good in these areas now too but Kolbe's on another level) and has much better footwork. They're the two best wingers in the world by a distance though IMO.

I don't know if May is that much faster. Interesting fact, did you know Cheslin Kolbe is the cousin of Wayde v Niekerk? Pace is in the genes. I forgot that May couldnt go past Scott Barret lol (Granted Barret had an angle and slight head start). I reckon Kolbe woulda scored that.

 

[ncurd]

Question: Why the hell is Kolbe making so many tackles?