RWC: Argentina - England (10-09-2011, 20:30)

[Phlegm & Poise]

Wilko vs Flood?

I don't think either are bad options providing they get quick ball. We've got a proven World Cup machine who won't kick as badly as he did today again in the rest of his career, and a decent running FH who has shown over the last 18 months he is capable of putting players outside him in space. Neither player is Dan Carter, but they are two decent options. Once Youngs came on we looked better and started putting phases together and getting over the gain line more. I'm not sure why we picked Wigglesworth, one can only assume it was fitness worries over Youngs as the more conservative Wigglesworth played into Argentina's hands a bit - not that he played poorly as such - it is just the type of player he is.

Thought Foden (put through by Wilkinson) should have done better with his pass wide to Armitage in the first half (though Armitage was miles away from him?). If we'd taken a lead at that stage it would have looked a lot more comfortable. Argentina tackled like monsters and feasted on English mistakes but aren't a great side when the impetus is on them to make things happen.

 

[j-dawg]

"J-dawg" ....

In fact Wilkinson missed three kicks at goal in that QF against Australia, as well as butcher a try scoring chance. You trumpet the way Wilkinson pick's up a large proportion of England's points when he plays but this is, unfortunately, a reflection of how few tries we score when he plays.

Its not his job to score tries, i'm not even going to take your opinions seriously now. Dan Cole also doesn't score tries and his lack of points reflects that, lets drop him and get someone more 'expansive' in and end up with a front row so bad it will be our undoing at the quarter final stages. Mike Catt butchered a try that was popped inside by Wilko. I guess thats also Wilko's fault. Yes he may have missed three kicks but he is the Rugby World Cups leading points scorer for a reason. We use him for points. Its worked pretty effectivley for the past two world cups but now you want us to go and find some expansive rugby just like that. Doesn't happen like that mate, and we don't have the midfield for it. I'd sooner kick it away than pass to Tindall anyway.

 

[Izzoard]

I think alot of people are calling for Hartley and Stevens to start now. Thompson is still better than Hartley, especially in the scrum. Just remember he had to deal with the Argentinian front row all game before Hartley arrived to take advantage of what was probably a very tired pack.

That's very true. The Argy pack looked very weak in the second half. I thought that Englands tactic seemed to be to wear them out up front and take advantage, which is a dangerous tactic.

Why can they not bring the backs into the game more effectively? They are very dangerous runners! It was Tulangi's rucking that set up our try, he's a powerful and underused youth!

 

[M Two One]

Glad I went to bed after the France v Japan match.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

Wilko vs Flood?

I don't think either are bad options providing they get quick ball. We've got a proven World Cup machine who won't kick as badly as he did today again in the rest of his career, and a decent running FH who has shown over the last 18 months he is capable of putting players outside him in space. Neither player is Dan Carter, but they are two decent options. Once Youngs came on we looked better and started putting phases together and getting over the gain line more. I'm not sure why we picked Wigglesworth, one can only assume it was fitness worries over Youngs as the more conservative Wigglesworth played into Argentina's hands a bit - not that he played poorly as such - it is just the type of player he is.

Thought Foden (put through by Wilkinson) should have done better with his pass wide to Armitage in the first half (though Armitage was miles away from him?). If we'd taken a lead at that stage it would have looked a lot more comfortable. Argentina tackled like monsters and feasted on English mistakes but aren't a great side when the impetus is on them to make things happen.

Excellent post, you deserve a medal for actually being able to provide balance on a forum !

 

[j-dawg]

Excellent post, you deserve a medal for actually being able to provide balance on a forum !

Its a forum - there is no need for balance.

 

[gingergenius]

Oh how I hate the media. I've spent the past few days really excited about the world cup reading and hearing all the 'experts' going on about how good Johnson is ('relaxed'!), and how good Jonny is. Maybe this match is the proof that we need not to listen to the media going on about the 6N Champions who beat Australia twice and have Jonny back with an 'exciting new midfield combination'. Not to mention that the only worthy 6N achievement is a Grand Slam; we also lost to Australia, plus NZ & SA at home; Jonny has been selected for playing exactly the same rugby he was dropped for; and the 'exciting midfield' contains Mike Tindall at 12. Appalling hypemongering.

Onto the game itself, and nothing really needs to be said.

The scrum functioned very well, I think Stevens should start 1 though. Hartley was an improvement on Thompson when he came on.

Lawes was good, Deacon invsible as usual. Palmer to start please.

Croft was abysmal. Easter equally so. Haskell still England's best player of 2011, my first name down in the back row. Wood must start too.

Wigglesworth was outstanding in defence, but you really noticed the step up in class from Youngs. Good to see him back.

Midfield. Oh Jonny lovers. Oh Tindall lovers. Still think Flood's our best 10, still want to try out Wilko-Flood-Tuilagi midfield. Won't happen though.

Back 3. Ashton was shockingly bad, missed tackles everywhere. Foden good, and Armitage certainly looked for work a lot.

issues raised on here:

1. Haskell on Contepomi & Lawes on Tiesi, two BIG hits that ended their games. Great thing was, both were legal.
2. Tuilagi was always comitted to his tackle
3. Besides being a fussy little prick, I don't think Bryce Lawrence made too many wrong calls today. England really need to wise up with refs like that.
4. Cymro - I've never had any issue with you before, but your posts on this thread do seem a wee bit sour. Although if you've had to put up with the same amount of England media hype that I have than I can see where the frustration is...

on to Georgia. Where presumably any more than 3 tries will have the media hailing Johnno again...

 

[superhans121]

English rugby supporter's (and press) obsession with defence, penalties and "Jonny" is what makes us so hated abroad. Frankly if winning a world cup means smashing the Aussie's scrum, penalty tries and drop goals playing depressing, risk averse, negative rugby, injuring carter and McCaw and then holding on for a 6-3 victory against the all blacks in the final... I would rather not win. Just embarrassing.

Happily, in all likelihood i don't think such a choice exists - we can either lose playing dour rugby or lose playing attractive rugby.

 

[Izzoard]

Ginger, you are being very much OTT. This is the first world cup game for many of these lads, **** sake Tulangi is 20 years old! Do you expect them not to have nerves? Give me a break (and them too). They came away with a win against a very physical side, who's known to start world cups by coming at you hard.

I was feeling pretty tense the whole way through, but these lads have now played and won their first world cup game. Judge them at the end of the groups.

I'll leave you on the thought of when you lost your virginity - was you a love making master? Or perhaps it was just good to get it out of the way and shoot your load ;-)

 

[JW.]

To be honest I was disgusted by England. Not impressed with Sheridan, Deacon(as normal), Croft, Easter, Ashton or Tindal(just had a bad game I think as did Ashton). Wilko's kicking was just an off day, he'll be fine next time he plays I didn't think his overall game was very bad.

Positives for me were obviously Youngs, Lawes, Wigglesworth (he wasen't exciting but he was very solid), Stevens. Haskell(has to be 8. for me with Wood in at 7) and Hartley.

England whent into contact on there own and they kept on freaking doing it ( they fixed this with 20mins to go and got on the front foot and scored). It's ARGENTINA!!! They're a solid team and they won't miss many tackles if you want fast ball you have to go in with a couple and win it! Also I did not agree with all of the calls the ref gave but after 15mins... Get on with it fix up your game and get used to it.

I would start Flood vs Romania and Georgia and see how he goes. At the moment Wilko would still be my starting Flyhalf, Youngs is obvious and for me he is the key if England are going to succeed he has to be in the centre of it. Backrow: Haskell in at 8, Wood at open and Croft stays at 6 (he hasen't earned it the last couple of games but for me he is still the best option). If Moody is fit Wood could go to 6?

 

[Izzoard]

Additionally, The average age of a WC winning team is 30+, old heads win and as Johnson said when he came into the job "there's no 50 cap cavelry coming over the hill". Old heads win these competitions, which is why SA are stupidly written off in favour of the Aussies (who IMO are still too young in the couldren of a WC final).

 

[captainpotwash]

Disappointed with todays performance from England, in particular with the play between the two half backs (although things improved with the introduction of Ben Youngs). Main concern is the lack of offensive threat at this point; and both first fives (Wilko and Flood) seem incapable of putting any players in useful space. Not once did I see any form of crash ball or go forward from the set piece which with our two centres (Tindall and Tuilagi) would be the best option? Too much dwindling and pointless drift from players on the go forward. We need more direction from the two half backs and this is evident in the change of pace when Young came on; we just need Wilko on board with it - to start putting in some flat passes to get the big boys over the gainline and on the front foot (for this reason I believe that Flood would work better as Y and F have plenty of game time together and will know how best to unleash Tuilagi. Agree with superhans121 on the fact that some more risk taking play would result in wins and less predictability, not to mention a much better quality of rugby and entertainment.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

4. Cymro - I've never had any issue with you before, but your posts on this thread do seem a wee bit sour. Although if you've had to put up with the same amount of England media hype that I have than I can see where the frustration is...

I mention something that is actually legit ... as in if he is play acting then Haskell needs to cut it out. If he was gouged expect a lengthy ban for the culprit.

Its not a hard thing to understand and its not sour it's an opinion. Dear old Henry made it into something that it was not. England won simply because Argentina ran out of puff. Hardly sour.

Oh and on the Wilko debate, should keep him there. He's better than Flood at the mo.

 

[Teh Mite]

During the game I got to thinking "where the bloody hell is the remote".

On the plus side, we should get the club players back soon

 

[gingergenius]

Ginger, you are being very much OTT. This is the first world cup game for many of these lads, **** sake Tulangi is 20 years old! Do you expect them not to have nerves? Give me a break (and them too). They came away with a win against a very physical side, who's known to start world cups by coming at you hard.

I was feeling pretty tense the whole way through, but these lads have now played and won their first world cup game. Judge them at the end of the groups.

I'll leave you on the thought of when you lost your virginity - was you a love making master? Or perhaps it was just good to get it out of the way and shoot your load ;-)

wayward analogy... I didn't spend months preparing to perform when I lost my virginity, and a rugby match in the 6N or a warm up is the same as a rugby match in the pool phase of the world cup. My hand does not equal a vajayjay.

The great irony is, baby Tuilagi played fine while 4th World Cup Johnny was poor.

This was nothing to do with '10 world cup debutants', another itv-inspired excuse.

 

[JW.]

I mention something that is actually legit ... as in if he is play acting then Haskell needs to cut it out. If he was gouged expect a lengthy ban for the culprit.

Its not a hard thing to understand and its not sour it's an opinion. Dear old Henry made it into something that it was not. England won simply because Argentina ran out of puff. Hardly sour.

Oh and on the Wilko debate, should keep him there. He's better than Flood at the mo.

The thing I think Henry was annoyed about and what I found annoying it that you were calling Haskell a 'footballer' etc. without being sure about what happened there? We might never find out as everyone knows alot happens in Rugby that goes 'unnoticed' . But trying to make a player look bad for no apparant reason as you cannot be sure what happened makes you look sour.

Also I found his try celebration rather awesome.

I agree on the Wilko comment.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I was very impressed with Haskell's game. He looked like a real 7, slowing Argentine ball and getting a few (I counted at least two) very important turnovers. He had played very well at 8 for Wales and today played very well too, but playing like a seven. He showed two styles of play and a surprising capacity to adapt to two different positions (whereas some other versatile backrowers have a playing style that fits two positions, it's not that they change their way of playing.)
Youngs proved to be the difference, a country mile ahead of other English halfbacks surely. Tindall went back to his normal self. The creativeness he had shown against Ireland was surely a one-off. The rest has been said (Wilko, Stevens, Thompson, blablabla).

For Argentina, Leguizamón and Fernández Lobbe were very good, and I was impressed by Bosch at 10. He hadn't played there in about three seasons and I think he proved to be more creative than both Contepomi and Fernández. Ledesma good as usual and youngster Figallo stepped up IMO. Roncero has to play against his reputation of giving away too many penalties; I feel sometimes referees are harsher on him than on others.
Camacho needs to understand that the goal is to reach the other side, not the opposite touchline. Imhoff did very well in only his second (I think) test match, and against a team as England.

 

[j-dawg]

Am I the only one that saw the guy attempt to gouge Haskell? Around 81 minutes and 46 seconds gone the guy clearly has his right hand and fingers all around Haskells brow. He's justified in acting the way he did, if it was me or someone more notorious (cough Jonno cough) the accused would have had more flying his way than colourful language.

Oh and I also loved Haskells celebration at Twickers. He also apologised for it in some paper the next day.

 

[JW.]

I missed that had my eyes closed for the last couple of seconds of the game, hehe . Had to keep telling myself today that we won... we won, 4 points.

 

[Duckdee]

Ugh.