RWC: Argentina - England (10-09-2011, 20:30)

[psychic duck]

Wheras Floods last two games - to remind you, a loss to Ireland and a loss to Wales - were at the pinnacle of fly half evolution.

Dan Carter would look average if he had Shontayne Hape and Matt Banahan for centres though

 

[Sixesandsevens]

How many times did Wilkinson kick today then compared to pass and run? I think you will find it wasnt alot. He had a bad day with the boot, but for me he should still be our number1. I really dont think he had a particularly bad game vs Ireland, much better than Floods end to the season anyway. And Im a Tigers fan.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think Wilkinson was poor vs Ireland


Floods last good game was against Italy - Flood is rightfully behind Wilko atm, however I think he should get some more game time


I think he'll probably start vs Georgia (if not he'll get 20+mins) and he will start vs Romania
Whoever performs best will start vs Scotland



Crappy thing is is that Banahan and Hape are guaranteed to feature as well

 

[Mr.cyclopede]

Why do people even care that England are wearing a black jersey? France played in white earlier and I couldn't give a shite. Even if I was from NZ I really wouldn't care at all. Even if its heritage it doesn't give you the right to exclusively own a color. I really do wonder if the reaction to it would have been been the same if it were any other team other than England wearing black.

I'll make a difference between these colors appropriation.
France was in a dark blue. Dark for sure but nevertheless blue. It's one our traditional color, coming from a 200 years tradition (blue represent the royalty on the Bleu/Blanc/Rouge flag).
I don't think black has to see with England in it's own sportive or political history. To the contrary, the white and the St-Georges cross are incredibly absent.

French TV speakers were saying today that none of the Rose supporters were wearing this jersey, so what's the real reason for adopting the black here ? I can't believe just because of sales/marketing matter (moreover with such that bad quality, back numbers quickly erasing during the match)...

 

[j'nuh]

Aye, I'd still have Wally over Hartley, but I'd have Stevens over Sheridan in my first choice front row

This.

Wilkinson is in the team for his goal kicking and defence. End of. He has had two very poor games in row now and has utterly failed to get our back line moving. As an attacking, ball playing 10, Toby Flood is a different League. We will not even challenge for this world cup playing the sort of turgid, negative rugby we saw on display this morning - quite simply our forwards are not good enough and our "prized asset" can't hit a barn door. However, if we reproduce the display that saw us demolish Australia in the Autumn - intelligent, fast-paced rugby orchestrated by Flood - we may just have a sniff.

And definitely this. We were fortunate when playing Australia that all of our players seemed to, in sync, come into a patch of very good form. Our half-backs need to rediscover that autumn form, Foden needs to be brought into expansive play more often and if we solve the problem we're having at the breakdown, we could easily be a very strong side again. We need to play Haskell at 8, pray for Moody's fitness, and bring Palmer back into the second row.

 

[superhans121]

Wheras Floods last two games - to remind you, a loss to Ireland and a loss to Wales - were at the pinnacle of fly half evolution.

Off the back of ten excellent performances, during which we dared to believe England had found something of an attacking identity. You only have to look at the way Ashton barely touched the ball to see that Jonny offers no threat on the gain line.

With any luck the Flood/youngs partnership will be restored next game and Jonny can revert to his role as the "closer".

 

[j'nuh]

Floods last good game was against Italy - Flood is rightfully behind Wilko atm, however I think he should get some more game time

But then, he's only played badly for England when the whole team has played badly. England as a whole dropped off towards the end of the six nations. It's hard to look good when you're not getting the service you need. Although, I'm not sure how he's played for Leicester.

 

[j-dawg]

Off the back of ten excellent performances, during which we dared to believe England had found something of an attacking identity. You only have to look at the way Ashton barely touched the ball to see that Jonny offers no threat on the gain line.

With any luck the Flood/youngs partnership will be restored next game and Jonny can revert to his role as the "closer".

Do you really want to talk about performing 'off the back' of things? How about off the back of a world cup final or two? Or even a world cup win? Or when England were in there Golden years with as much 'attacking intensity' you can shake a stick at? Of course you don't, why? Because past form doesn't matter in a world cup. Flood could be coming off the back of 20 victories in a row but if he's momentarily lost that edge there is NO point in keeping him there.

 

[psychic duck]

Crappy thing is is that Banahan and Hape are guaranteed to feature as well

even worse is if Banahan scored a couple of tries against Romania, casual fans would think he was good, just like people thought he could be a serious centre option just after scoring a couple of tries against Samoa

I heard Ben Kay today describing him as the ... "X-Factor England need"

I hope Georgia and Romania defend well in midfield and on the wings so Banahan is never talked about as a serious international rugby player again

 

[j-dawg]

Banahan for Coach, Hape for vice captain and Tindall for ca....oh wait.

 

[superhans121]

Do you really want to talk about performing 'off the back' of things? How about off the back of a world cup final or two? Or even a world cup win? Or when England were in there Golden years with as much 'attacking intensity' you can shake a stick at? Of course you don't, why? Because past form doesn't matter in a world cup. Flood could be coming off the back of 20 victories in a row but if he's momentarily lost that edge there is NO point in keeping him there.

Hahaha I actually totally agree!! So try telling that to the to the press and great British public that continue to fawnicate over "Golden Boy" Jonny Wilkinson, utterly blind to his aimless tactical kicking, non-existent running game and clumsey turgid passing game. Jonny has been living off reputation for a pretty long time now.

oh wait - but at least he's an immaculate goal kicker.

 

[j'nuh]

Do you really want to talk about performing 'off the back' of things? How about off the back of a world cup final or two? Or even a world cup win? Or when England were in there Golden years with as much 'attacking intensity' you can shake a stick at? Of course you don't, why? Because past form doesn't matter in a world cup. Flood could be coming off the back of 20 victories in a row but if he's momentarily lost that edge there is NO point in keeping him there.

But the way England have evolved over the past 8 years has transformed what we need out of a fly-half. What was required in 2003 is different from now. In the past, we could play a tight, disciplined game and rely on Wilkinson as our goal-kicking option. Then, as the laws of the game and the England personnel changed, particularly in more recent years with the introduction of Foden, Armitage, Ashton, Youngs etc., it became more important to play expansively. Whereas Flood might be off-form (form comes and goes with the draw of a breath), at least we know that he has the ability to play the expansive game we need to play. Wilkinson still has a place, but only as a means to force the opposition into a tight game when,
A: they're beating us in the expansive style of play and we need to force a change in the style of play,
or B: we're winning and want to slow the game down and see it out.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Exactly this - (people who care about this from) NZ need to get over themselves




I hadn't realised that White doesn't clash with White?

We've always worn our change kit vs Argentina

I'm not sure where the guys from New Zealand are that supposedly care about this. It's a small minority. Most New Zealanders are laughing about it. We don't own black on uniforms, but it looks silly from the perspective that apparently other teams don't care about their heritage and need to sell more jersey's. That's about it really. I don't dislike England, but really tonight they looked a little foolish (by saying "whatever the jersey, we'll wear it"), whilst playing really average rugby against a team that'd just really got together, and did pretty well.


Then they kissed them?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But then, he's only played badly for England when the whole team has played badly. England as a whole dropped off towards the end of the six nations. It's hard to look good when you're not getting the service you need. Although, I'm not sure how he's played for Leicester.

Pretty crappily to be honest - he went to sh*t after the 6 Nations, and a combination of him and Youngs being poor after the 6N cost Tigers the Premiership ***le, and made them look like right chumps vs Leinster

I'm not sure where the guys from New Zealand are that supposedly care about this. It's a small minority.

Which is why, if you'd read the post again, I said the people that care. I didn't say all of NZ, just those that care.

 

[j-dawg]

But the way England have evolved over the past 8 years has transformed what we need out of a fly-half. What was required in 2003 is different from now. In the past, we could play a tight, disciplined game and rely on Wilkinson as our goal-kicking option. Then, as the laws of the game and the England personnel changed, particularly in more recent years with the introduction of Foden, Armitage, Ashton, Youngs etc., it became more important to play expansively. Whereas Flood might be off-form (form comes and goes with the draw of a breath), at least we know that he has the ability to play the expansive game we need to play. Wilkinson still has a place, but only as a means to force the opposition into a tight game when,
A: they're beating us in the expansive style of play and we need to force a change in the style of play,
or B: we're winning and want to slow the game down and see it out.

Just said it yourself. i'd rather have an on form Wilkinson than an on form Flood. 'At least we know that he has the ability to play the expansive game', well I put it to you that we know Wilkinson has the ability to win us world cups.

 

[Sixesandsevens]

I agree with J dawg. And I thought Jonny played well today. Seriously. Goal kicking was his worst ever display for England and wont happen again, however all round game was very good.

 

[j'nuh]

Just said it yourself. i'd rather have an on form Wilkinson than an on form Flood. 'At least we know that he has the ability to play the expansive game', well I put it to you that we know Wilkinson has the ability to win us world cups.

Wilkinson didn't single-handedly win us the WC in 2003. We had a very strong pack which bullied teams. Our current pack won't get us the same results. Last autumn we looked better than at any point in recent years, with Flood leading and by letting our backs run.

Pretty crappily to be honest - he went to sh*t after the 6 Nations, and a combination of him and Youngs being poor after the 6N cost Tigers the Premiership ***le, and made them look like right chumps vs Leinster

Shame. Youngs looked great today though. He made such a difference when he came on. I'm just going to keep my fingers crossed for Flood to do the same.

 

[superhans121]

Just said it yourself. i'd rather have an on form Wilkinson than an on form Flood. 'At least we know that he has the ability to play the expansive game', well I put it to you that we know Wilkinson has the ability to win us world cups.

Haha what utter rubish! The notion that putting a "2003 era" Jonny Wilkinson into this England side would win us the world cup (which, I believe, is what you are are inferring?) is absolutely laughable. In 2003 Wilkinson was an important part of a very good side. Playing behind an extremely effective pack, surrounded by world class players Jonny was able to play a game plan that worked very well for us - tight, controlled rugby, playing for penalties and defensive lapses and punishing any mistakes. Plainly (as we saw this morning) England are not currently capable of playing such a game, meaning we'll have to be a bit more imaginative than relying on the "ace goalkicker"​that is Jonny Wilkinson if we want to progress in this world cup.

 

[j-dawg]

Wilkinson didn't single-handedly win us the WC in 2003. We had a very strong pack which bullied teams. Our current pack won't get us the same results. Last autumn we looked better than at any point in recent years, with Flood leading and by letting our backs run.


Shame. Youngs looked great today though. He made such a difference when he came on. I'm just going to keep my fingers crossed for Flood to do the same.

I know full well he didn't, but he was a major force in getting out of tricky situations. Played France in the semi final, all points from Wilko. Flood tends to crumble when his pack are not dominating. What about 2007? Wilko again sweeping up the points that dumps the arrogant aussies out. Face facts, we are not going to find this majestic 'expansive rugby' you love so much between now and the Scotland game. We grind wins out and there is no better fly half for that than Wilko.

and also, superhans121, if you say we are incapable of grinding out wins and just kicking goals (which, btw, is a big stereotypical view of English rugby) what chance do we have of discovering this hallowed Australian style rugby you seem to love so much?

 

[superhans121]

I know full well he didn't, but he was a major force in getting out of tricky situations. Played France in the semi final, all points from Wilko. Flood tends to crumble when his pack are not dominating. What about 2007? Wilko again sweeping up the points that dumps the arrogant aussies out. Face facts, we are not going to find this majestic 'expansive rugby' you love so much between now and the Scotland game. We grind wins out and there is no better fly half for that than Wilko.

"J-dawg" .... you are the reason people hate English rugby supporters. A dour obsession with penalties and defence. England have demonstrated on several occasions in the last year (against serious opposition) that we are capable of playing an attractive, winning game.

In fact Wilkinson missed three kicks at goal in that QF against Australia, as well as butcher a try scoring chance. You trumpet the way Wilkinson pick's up a large proportion of England's points when he plays but this is, unfortunately, a reflection of how few tries we score when he plays.