[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (05/11/2016)

[Makos]

Makos - I doubt most of America even know or care much about rugby or the ABs losing yesterday (I am still a sceptic that it will make any major breakthrough there). From comments here, I understand that this match was only shown online there as well, so only hardcore American rugby fans would have logged onto watch. Chicago was much more interested in the Cubs winning the World series.

It's a huge country and has one of the highest amount of registered players world wide. The All Blacks have gained quite a following there, so there is still a large market. I think there's a lot of commercial potential there, if what you're saying about the online streaming, there could be TV revenue in the future to buy rights to the play the match, meaning more income for the participating sides.

 

[TheOvalBall]

I can't help wondering if people are getting a bit carried away on this.

It was a great game and Ireland deserve all the plaudits but has anything really changed following this weekend?

• The ABs are still the best side in the world with everyone playing catch-up.
• Ireland are an excellent side who have great performances in them at times, as has long been the case.
• Wales under Howley are pretty uninspired, which I think was the case last time (maybe I'm mistaken). Either way their tactics don't seem to be standing them in good stead right now.
• We don't know how good the Aussies actually are yet, although they look threatening.

No offence intended but it is quite funny to see the AB fans dissecting the team, highlighting weaknesses and calling for changes.
Of course everyone has their opinions about how a side should be strengthened but it's just one game - everyone has to lose at some point, the world order hasn't changed, this just makes things a little more interesting.

Consider this:


1) People enjoyed seeing Ireland win and the AB's losing. AB's losing their winning streak, and Ireland beating All Blacks for the first time.
2) Ireland have a chance now to beat the All Blacks again, and showed they can be beaten.


Yesterday's result was a very big deal.

 

[munstermuffin]

A full-back's not trying if he's not the best attacker for metres made.

I should really go and compile stats on what you can expect from someone depending on position in an international jersey...

In fairness and I slate Kearney it was fact it was meaningful metres ie beating defenders.
Our backrow as a unit made some scary stats though.

 

[ALJ]

Consider this:


1) People enjoyed seeing Ireland win and the AB's losing. AB's losing their winning streak, and Ireland beating All Blacks for the first time.
2) Ireland have a chance now to beat the All Blacks again, and showed they can be beaten.


Yesterday's result was a very big deal.

None of that is in question, that wasn't my point at all.

Yes it was a great game and a great day for rugby.

But one game changes nothing - the ABs are not on the slide and are not in need of major changes, Ireland are not the best team in the world (yes, I know nobody is suggesting they are but there's plenty about how they're now key GS contenders, etc, which is a bit premature).

If Ireland win again in two weeks time (and it's a big 'if') then it might be different but as of this moment, the ABs had to lose to someone at some point so it cannot be seen as anything other than a very exciting, very notable one off.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The tackle on Barrett was awful but he had an awful lot of ground to make up on Naholo who never should have been given that space, I referenced that in my comment about him anyway.

I hope peole realise that this wasn't a performance out of nowhere from him either. It was, like every other player in green, an improvement on everything he's been doing well with his province. Winning aerial battles, covering the backfield, setting up phases by intelligently running the ball back into safe traffic and joining the line to attack narrow channels is what he's been doing well for Leinster this year, yesterday was just the 'on the day Ireland beat NZ' variety of it.

 

[ALJ]

The tackle on Barrett was awful but he had an awful lot of ground to make up on Naholo who never should have been given that space, I referenced that in my comment about him anyway.

I hope peole realise that this wasn't a performance out of nowhere from him either. It was, like every other player in green, an improvement on everything he's been doing well with his province. Winning aerial battles, covering the backfield, setting up phases by intelligently running the ball back into safe traffic and joining the line to attack narrow channels is what he's been doing well for Leinster this year, yesterday was just the 'on the day Ireland beat NZ' variety of it.

Have people ever questioned Kearney's quality? Always been a big fan myself tbh.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

None of that is in question, that wasn't my point at all.

Yes it was a great game and a great day for rugby.

But one game changes nothing - the ABs are not on the slide and are not in need of major changes, Ireland are not the best team in the world (yes, I know nobody is suggesting they are but there's plenty about how they're now key GS contenders, etc, which is a bit premature).

If Ireland win again in two weeks time (and it's a big 'if') then it might be different but as of this moment, the ABs had to lose to someone at some point so it cannot be seen as anything other than a very exciting, very notable one off.

I disagree with the evaluation of Ireland entirely. After a shaky 6nations we beat SA with a very inexperienced side, they didn't quite have the nous to win the series but pushed it close, that win was described as a 'one off', now our first win against an NZ side which provided half of their winning streak is being described as a 'one off' and I'm not buying it. If you break down 'Ireland under Schmidt's' achievements year by year it reads 2014 - Six Nations win, test series win in Argentina, AI wins over SA and Aus. 2015 - Six Nations win, Ireland's all time highest world ranking of 2nd, topped RWC group, 2016 - Ireland's 1st test match win in South Africa and 1st test match win over New Zealand.

When do these achievements stop being described as one offs? Apart from Australia, England and NZ his team beat every side played at the first time of asking and got those three at the second attempt. The, rather outrageous, criticism of Ireland before the game was that the team hadn't developed since 2014, that's well and truly been disproven. This match is hugely significant in Ireland's development, it probably leaves them in a difficult position having to reevaluate their goals for the three remaining tests but they'll do that well and be consistently competitive. Yesterday shows the depth this Ireland side have as well being down to their third choice at 25 minutes and Stander who probably fits in on the bench of a full strength squad as well as missing back three players and with the exception of Healy and Cronin the four subs used had 4 starts between them as well. Considering that a grand slam would be beating Howley's Wales in Cardiff and England and France in Dublin calls that this side are contenders, which I've nt seen, is only premature because the championship is four months away, it would be different if we receive two hammerings this month but there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that will happen.

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Have people ever questioned Kearney's quality? Always been a big fan myself tbh.

Aye, there was a lot of *****ing about his selection this week and in the 6nations just gone. Driven by a desire for a 'flair' player regardless of aerial ability at times too.

 

[TheOvalBall]

Joe Schmidt apologizing to his mom, right at the end of the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06mIarA63Xk

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness to the Kearney debate. Payne was the better form 15 and Ringrose was definitely a credible debate too. But Schmidt gets paid to make the calls and in fairness he delivered.

 

[ALJ]

I disagree with the evaluation of Ireland entirely. After a shaky 6nations we beat SA with a very inexperienced side, they didn't quite have the nous to win the series but pushed it close, that win was described as a 'one off', now our first win against an NZ side which provided half of their winning streak is being described as a 'one off' and I'm not buying it. If you break down 'Ireland under Schmidt's' achievements year by year it reads 2014 - Six Nations win, test series win in Argentina, AI wins over SA and Aus. 2015 - Six Nations win, Ireland's all time highest world ranking of 2nd, topped RWC group, 2016 - Ireland's 1st test match win in South Africa and 1st test match win over New Zealand.

When do these achievements stop being described as one offs? Apart from Australia, England and NZ his team beat every side played at the first time of asking and got those three at the second attempt. The, rather outrageous, criticism of Ireland before the game was that the team hadn't developed since 2014, that's well and truly been disproven. This match is hugely significant in Ireland’s development, it probably leaves them in a difficult position having to reevaluate their goals for the three remaining tests but they'll do that well and be consistently competitive. Yesterday shows the depth this Ireland side have as well being down to their third choice at 25 minutes and Stander who probably fits in on the bench of a full strength squad as well as missing back three players and with the exception of Healy and Cronin the four subs used had 4 starts between them as well. Considering that a grand slam would be beating Howley's Wales in Cardiff and England and France in Dublin calls that this side are contenders, which I've nt seen, is only premature because the championship is four months away, it would be different if we receive two hammerings this month but there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that will happen.

I mean no disrespect but in the last year your record is: Beaten by France & England plus a draw with Wales in the 6N, 1 win against SA (who are also rebuilding) with a series loss and now a win against NZ.

You can argue you have two notable victories but you also have 4 notable losses and one draw so Ireland's record in the last year doesn't suggest you are at world beater level (yet).

As I say, this could all look very different in a fortnight....

I don't question that it is a fantastic win but, while it might well prove the launchpad for a dominant era of Irish Rugby, that's all it is for the time being.

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Aye, there was a lot of *****ing about his selection this week and in the 6nations just gone. Driven by a desire for a 'flair' player regardless of aerial ability at times too.

Surprises me, I'd have him in the England side.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's a huge country and has one of the highest amount of registered players world wide. The All Blacks have gained quite a following there, so there is still a large market. I think there's a lot of commercial potential there, if what you're saying about the online streaming, there could be TV revenue in the future to buy rights to the play the match, meaning more income for the participating sides.

It may find a niche, but it will always struggle to compete against their major sports IMO. I just can't see past the Mass American parochial mentality I.e. If you've been and spent any time in the US you'll know they follow their local state team and college sports way more then the ABs and the coverage of this dominates their TV coverage and that's before the major teams/Franchises in those sports. Where does a 15 man rugby union (sevens has a better chance) really fit in, let alone hoards of American All black fans paying much to log in online to watch the Rugby Championship. The best chance is if ABs/Rugby union is shown on free TV or part of their ESPN cable/online package there and from what I read this match wasn't.

Until rugby makes any impression at high school level and grows from there, the sport will continue to be a minor distraction for the mass American market. Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread. Going to back to the original point, 1 loss for the ABs in USA won't make much impact IMO.

 

[dullonien]

Congrats Ireland. You deserved your first win in 2013, it's finally come now! great for rugby that such a great piece of history was played in front of a full house in Chicago.

Think it's made me slightly more depressed after our horrendous performance against Aus though!

 

[profitius]

I mentioned last week that the difference between Ireland now than in the past - even until relatively recently when we had BOD, POC, Ferris etc - is that we now have squad depth. In times gone by you would have probably seen SOB and POM thrown in even though they're not fully match fit yet. Theres no need to do that now. The quantity is there in most positions and the quality is starting to trickle through as well eg Furlong, Carbery and Ringrose.


No doubt NZ are still out on their own as the best team in the world but from an Irish point of view, we're slowly making progress and its great to have got over the line, finally. The best thing about it was the mental strength of the team. They were rattled after NZ scored those 3 tries but steadied the ship, composed themselves and finished strongly.


Lets see how the remaining matches go. NZ will want revenge and even though Wales were below their best, I thought Australia looked impressive going forward.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I mean no disrespect but in the last year your record is: Beaten by France & England plus a draw with Wales in the 6N, 1 win against SA (who are also rebuilding) with a series loss and now a win against NZ.

You can argue you have two notable victories but you also have 4 notable losses and one draw so Ireland's record in the last year doesn't suggest you are at world beater level (yet).

As I say, this could all look very different in a fortnight....

I don't question that it is a fantastic win but, while it might well prove the launchpad for a dominant era of Irish Rugby, that's all it is for the time being.

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Surprises me, I'd have him in the England side.

Don't worry I know you don't, I think the aggressiveness, for lack of a better word, stems from the criticism Schmidt received as recently as this week for being conservative and playing negative rugby. Its been pretty obvious that he's used this year to blood new players and has and continues to rebuild from the leftovers of our world cup side and young talent while evolving the gameplan. It was a somewhat slow process due to the difficult Wales-France-England start to the 6 n not affording him a test against Italy or Scotland to consolidate his new systems and he was also working without a defence coach.

Now he's coached Ireland to their two biggest test victories of the pro era which are only really rivalled before that by our series win in Australia so I continue to disagree with the opinion that this could be described as a one off and it changes nothing but I think we're approaching the subject from different perspectives.

 

[The Jones Boy]

For my part I don't see this result as a one off.
Ireland have been bubbling under for a long while now.
I see this as long overdue and of course the Irish can do it again.
The pressure will be on at Dublin to do it again.
With the advantage of the home crowd, and the disadvantage that Hansen knows whats coming, but he may not be able to do that much about it in the lineout if Retallick 2014 Player of the year doesn't return.

 

[Makos]

It may find a niche, but it will always struggle to compete against their major sports IMO. I just can't see past the Mass American parochial mentality I.e. If you've been and spent any time in the US you'll know they follow their local state team and college sports way more then the ABs and the coverage of this dominates their TV coverage and that's before the major teams/Franchises in those sports. Where does a 15 man rugby union (sevens has a better chance) really fit in, let alone hoards of American All black fans paying much to log in online to watch the Rugby Championship. The best chance is if ABs/Rugby union is shown on free TV or part of their ESPN cable/online package there and from what I read this match wasn't.

Until rugby makes any impression at high school level and grows from there, the sport will continue to be a minor distraction for the mass American market. Anyway, this is a discussion for another thread. Going to back to the original point, 1 loss for the ABs in USA won't make much impact IMO.

I'm not talking about it rivaling those sports. I'm simply saying there's market potential there for;

1.The number of registered players
2.The population
3.Americans are beginning to really enjoy Rugby
4.The reputation the All Blacks generated

I'ts never going to rival any of their major sports, but rugby is growing there and fast. It's highly regarded and played, especially in College. It's certainly a good market to tap into.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ireland's issue now and Schmidts will be consistent displays at high level. Not that he hasn't already but he sets standards high and that I think is his goal. Where everyday Ireland will go out believing they are more than capable.

 

[ALJ]

Don't worry I know you don't, I think the aggressiveness, for lack of a better word, stems from the criticism Schmidt received as recently as this week for being conservative and playing negative rugby. Its been pretty obvious that he's used this year to blood new players and has and continues to rebuild from the leftovers of our world cup side and young talent while evolving the gameplan. It was a somewhat slow process due to the difficult Wales-France-England start to the 6 n not affording him a test against Italy or Scotland to consolidate his new systems and he was also working without a defence coach.

Now he's coached Ireland to their two biggest test victories of the pro era which are only really rivalled before that by our series win in Australia so I continue to disagree with the opinion that this could be described as a one off and it changes nothing but I think we're approaching the subject from different perspectives.

Fair enough.

I genuinely hope you do it again in a fortnight - that really would shake things up.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Robbie Henshaw's Wikipedia page "He is an Irish Rugby Union Player and Kiwi slayer." Made me giggle.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I'm not talking about it rivaling those sports. I'm simply saying there's market potential there for;

1.The number of registered players
2.The population
3.Americans are beginning to really enjoy Rugby
4.The reputation the All Blacks generated

I'ts never going to rival any of their major sports, but rugby is growing there and fast. It's highly regarded and played, especially in College. It's certainly a good market to tap into.

Yes and I am saying that this one loss is not going to make diddly squat difference to what Americans think about the ABs.

And you say registered players - how many? They may play, but doesn't mean they are interested in the ABs. American fans are interested in their own National team, not another country's national team, no matter how successful.

Population - 330 million. But again how many sports are competing in this sports market? Not even including their own major sports. As I said if anything it'll carve out a niche, if that. If RU is falling to about 4th or 5th in a country that has a rugby union tradition like Australia, what are the chances of it growing that big in a country like the US.

Americans are really beginning to enjoy rugby - means nothing. It's just your perception or opinion; doesn't mean that they would prioritise watching or playing rugby over their own sports.

The reputation ABs generated - this is marketing talk because ABs are sponsored by AIG, which is the main reason why ABs are playing tests in the US.