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[November Tests 2016 EOYT] Ireland vs. New Zealand (05/11/2016)

amazing game, I'm happy it was Ireland & Schmidt to break the run and make history. They played very well, had a great gameplan and it was thoroughly deserved.

cant take anything away from the Irish win but this was one of those nightmare games for the AB's.

Hansen & Co have an untouchable aura and its often frowned on to question their decisions but I think they made a lot of tactical and selection mistakes in this game.



Retalick & Whitelock out plus Romano. The Kaino at lock experiment simply didn't work and was clearly targeted. I guess you never know how a player will go on short notice debut but Barrett seemed to handle it well when he went on and helped sure the line outs. I think this situation was even deeper because Dominic Bird is injured as well. I think in future the coaches will be a bit smarter here, we have the best locks in the world and you cant just take them out and get a flanker to play lock.

Crotty getting injured early really upset the balance of the backline, its pretty clear that Fekitoa would have replaced Moala if not for the injury. Generally I thought Moala played ok but he got injured at the worst time just as we were looking like we could get ahead.

Julian Savea back to his worst, I think I said earlier in this thread I dont like the Naholo & Savea wing combo. Have one or the other but not both, and on form Naholo should be selected first, I think hes still not quite 100 after his injury issues. With all the other disruption and changes in the side this was not the game to rest Dagg. I think we would have been safer with ALB involved as well.

Aaron Smith was off his game still. I'd think that unless Smith can turn things around against Italy then Perenara should start in the rematch. Italy may not be enough of a test to really see where Smith is at. I Think TKB or Weber would have done better.

I think overall the selection was such that if something did go wrong it was going to really going to put us under pressure. Maybe I get the feeling the coaches took the Irish a bit lightly. We had the locking injury issues to cover, Aaron Smith to slot back into the side somehow after his issues and the coaches still found room for rotation and experimentation as well? The side was just a bit agricultural.

As it happened we finished the game with Read at lock, Squire at 8, Taylor playing flanker, Ardie Savea out in the back line somewhere and both Cruden & Barrett on. Its been a long time since we had a mishmash like that.

As it happened, with ~10min to go at ~33-29 I thought at that stage we were almost sure to win, I was very confident, Bauden started really attacking the line and subsequent phases were making a lot of ground and we found the tryline.. At that stage we seemed to make ground at will and be well on top of the Irish defense, some of which looked out on their feet. It was that point Moala got injured and we lost that momentum. After that we lacked patients, forced things a bit and started to make mistakes to the point where the last min or so was an absolute mess.

Joe Moody's Card obviously had a massive impact on the game as well, let two trys in and really helped Ireland pile on the early pressure.

It sucks that we lost, but the worst thing about winning all the time is that it gets a bit boring with results being the same. This is going to really spice up the rematch in Dublin. We will get to see how this All Black side reacts to a loss.

We should learn 10 times more from a loss than a win. But we do still have injury issues with the locks and now we have Crotty & Moala injured. Perenara should start and we need to be smarter selecting our back 3.

Totally Agreed!!

Hansen & Co made a lot of tactical and selection mistakes in this game. They made too many changes in the team removing Anton Lienert-Brown was unnecessary. This has put too much uncertainty in the team so is very obvious the coaches took the Irish too lightly.

This is not a game for the newer players to gain more experience. There were many opportunities before especially the home games for the new players to gain experience. I read Dominic Joseph Bird is not selected because of injury. However his last test...was 15 November 2014 . So what have the Management team been thinking about the last two years..
 
Rubbish, the Autumn Tours are exactly the right place to try things out and experiment with players.
This is a new team with new blood that has to be tried and tested and that is what happened.
You learn heaps more from a failure than you do from a win.
These young guys needed to learn how it feels when you lose, it's not something they have done a lot of...
Did Hansen know something?
Why did he leave Wyatt Crockett out of the AB team to play Ireland in Chicago?
Crockett is still on track to beat Lozza Dallaglio.s record of the most consecutive wins for an International player (28). Was he left out so he could get the record? Is Hansen that calculating? I doubt it but its fun to have conjecture about it.
Wyatt Crockett now has a 96.73 per cent winning record with the All Blacks, having endured just one defeat in the 46 tests he has played. Crockett has also played in 18 straight tests without defeat, the highest active streak.]
 
You learn heaps more from a failure than you do from a win.
]

Does this mean Cruden finally gets reinstated as starter at 10 given his unbeaten record starting at 10 for the ABs ..and Dagg's reinstated on the wing - two full backs being better than one...
..or does this mean TJ starts ahead of Aaron Smith..or do we go with the same team for the rematch with Ireland less those injured...what changes can we expect..?
 
Does this mean Cruden finally gets reinstated as starter at 10 given his unbeaten record starting at 10 for the ABs ..and Dagg's reinstated on the wing - two full backs being better than one...
..or does this mean TJ starts ahead of Aaron Smith..

Sounds like a good starting option for the return match with Ireland.
 
Welcome back to planet earth NZ...

So it seems like no top international team can win 20 consecutive games?

Congrats Ireland.
 
I think there's a tendency among fans to shout for changes changes changes following a loss - you may not be aware if this, ABs fans, since you'd previously forgotten what losing is, but take it from the rest of the world, shouting for kneejerk selection changes in forums and in comments sections is a traditional part of defeat.

Hansen and co aren't going to panic. You're still the best in the world, one loss doesn't invalidate the principles and tactics which led to 18 wins, nor the personnel. Any suggestion that Aaron Smith or Beaudon Barrett be dropped is madness, both are world class players who have been key parts of an extremely good team - dropping either of them is fan-on-a-forum thinking not international coach thinking.

You got beaten by a better team on the day, some players who normally have good games had bad days. That's sport.
 
I dont think NZ played particulary badly (apart from their sheer panic throwing the ball around at the end). Ireland were just ridiculously good both in offence and defence. Took their foot off the gas a little in the second half but had they kept up their first half intensity then they would have won by a lot more. brilliant to see any NH team put that kind of performance together against SH. just a shame Wales seem to be going backwards! haha
 
I think there's a tendency among fans to shout for changes changes changes following a loss - you may not be aware if this, ABs fans, since you'd previously forgotten what losing is, but take it from the rest of the world, shouting for kneejerk selection changes in forums and in comments sections is a traditional part of defeat.

Hansen and co aren't going to panic. You're still the best in the world, one loss doesn't invalidate the principles and tactics which led to 18 wins, nor the personnel. Any suggestion that Aaron Smith or Beaudon Barrett be dropped is madness, both are world class players who have been key parts of an extremely good team - dropping either of them is fan-on-a-forum thinking not international coach thinking.

You got beaten by a better team on the day, some players who normally have good games had bad days. That's sport.

Excellent post.

One team had a very good day at the office and the other a very bad one. The gap will close, but at the moment that's what it takes to beat the ABs. I can't see it as being anything more than a glorious one off for Ireland though.
 
Bit late to the party but HUGE congrats to Ireland, what a display that was. Immense across the board and has totally shaken up the expectations for the Lions this year. It was an incredible run from New Zealand though and something had to give eventually. No need to panic for them - they're still without a doubt the top team but finally we have a sense that other teams are capable of competing with and eventually beating them. What an advertisement for rugby. Congrats again!
 
I think there's a tendency among fans to shout for changes changes changes following a loss - you may not be aware if this, ABs fans, since you'd previously forgotten what losing is, but take it from the rest of the world, shouting for kneejerk selection changes in forums and in comments sections is a traditional part of defeat.

Hansen and co aren't going to panic. You're still the best in the world, one loss doesn't invalidate the principles and tactics which led to 18 wins, nor the personnel. Any suggestion that Aaron Smith or Beaudon Barrett be dropped is madness, both are world class players who have been key parts of an extremely good team - dropping either of them is fan-on-a-forum thinking not international coach thinking.

You got beaten by a better team on the day, some players who normally have good games had bad days. That's sport.

I don't really see much of that going on. I just see more questions and people pointing out what didn't work and how it can be improved the next time we play Ireland.

It was fairly obvious Aaron Smith shouldn't have started, coming in cold from a massive off-field controversy.
Clearly we should have called in a specialist lock, like Tom Franklin, who played for the Maori's the day before vs USA.
ALB should have been at least on the bench, while Moala could have been used as wing cover as well.

Definitely some big tactical errors from Hansen and it was an incomplete side and one of the few times he failed to properly mentally prepare the team, hence the massive deficit we were facing at one point. If we were going to roll out a mentally under-prepared side, at least make it a little more solid in areas.

I'm not sure Hansen took the Irish lightly or not, but he clearly thought that even some of our younger and inexperienced players could produce a result. It's great to have that confidence in your players and Ireland are a top team, so it's a great learning curve for a lot of them.

Come the test match in Dublin, I really want to see our hunger there from the whistle, I want to see us on our game and mentally show up. I want us to smash Ireland in Dublin!
 
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I don't really see much of that going on. I just see more questions and people pointing out what didn't work and how it can be improved the next time we play Ireland.

It was fairly obvious Aaron Smith shouldn't have started, coming in cold from a massive off-field controversy.
Clearly we should have called in a specialist lock, like Tom Franklin, who played for the Maori's the day before vs USA.
ALB should have been at least on the bench, while Moala could have been used as wing cover as well.

Definitely some big tactical errors from Hansen and it was an incomplete side and one of the few times he failed to properly mentally prepare the team, hence the massive deficit we were facing at one point. If we were going to roll out a mentally under-prepared side, at least make it a little more solid in areas.

I'm not sure Hansen took the Irish lightly or not, but he clearly thought that even some of our younger and inexperienced players could produce a result. It's great to have that confidence in your players and Ireland are a top team, so it's a great learning curve for a lot of them.

Come the test match in Dublin, I really want to see our hunger there from the whistle, I want to see us on our game and mentally show up. I want us to smash Ireland in Dublin!

That last paragraph is the most satisfying thing to come out of this match, prior to Saturday's game two or three comments from NZ posters in NZ v Ire threads would always read 'if we have to lose, I hope its to Ireland', obviously meant to be respectful but was inadvertently condescending. We're rivals now, not a game for your lads to show off and feel great about themselves.

When was the last time NZ lost twice in a row against anyone? Directly after the match I was thinking of the hammering we'll receive in two weeks but now I'm thinking our lads can send yours home really hating the colour green.

Edit: http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/rob-kearney-interview-ireland-new-zealand/101994

Baller...
 
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That last paragraph is the most satisfying thing to come out of this match, prior to Saturday's game two or three comments from NZ posters in NZ v Ire threads would always read 'if we have to lose, I hope its to Ireland', obviously meant to be respectful but was inadvertently condescending. We're rivals now, not a game for your lads to show off and feel great about themselves.

When was the last time NZ lost twice in a row against anyone? Directly after the match I was thinking of the hammering we'll receive in two weeks but now I'm thinking our lads can send yours home really hating the colour green.

South Africa and France both did it back in 2009. France beat us in the 2007 RWC then beat us in NZ in 2009. South Africa actually beat us 3 times in a row in that period 2008-2009. Stephan Donald was our starting 10.

Don't get too ahead of yourself :)
 
South Africa and France both did it back in 2009. France beat us in the 2007 RWC then beat us in NZ in 2009. South Africa actually beat us 3 times in a row in that period 2008-2009. Stephan Donald was our starting 10.

Don't get too ahead of yourself :)

Haha! I don't think I'm getting ahead of myself, there's 25 lads recovering from hangovers starting to think the exact same way, a handful more envious heads wanting to join and get a piece of the pie too! She'll be a cracker on the 19th!
 
saying that more americans know who the all blacks are than the eagles is just as likely to be true than the other way around

the only people who know about the U.S. rugby team are rugby players and they all know who the all blacks are

people in the sports world assume that the U.S. has a national team but they know who the all blacks are just cause new zealand is only known for rugby in the sports world (if you say US national team, it means soccer... if you say New Zealand national team, it's rugby)

even the sorority girl from last night knows who the all blacks are cause "they do that dance thing before the game"

Americans like winners and brands, especially the ones who watch international sports... Americans are probably more likely tow watch Brazil and Argentina play in soccer than the U.S. vs. any country not named Mexico, Brazil, or Argentina
which is one of the reasons that the U.S. and Maori played at Toyota Park and All Blacks Ireland was played at Soldier Field

Wow, well isn't that just proof how fast Rugby is growing in the US and the power of the AB brand when a Sorority girl recognises that the ABs are "the team that does that dance thing before the game".;).

Seriously, until the American Eagles have any kind of success against a Tier 1 nation to make the mass American public sit up and notice, then they will continue to be obscure. However, as we saw last Friday, they are no where near that level, when they are getting thrashed by NZ's second/third team.

I would be interested to know the breakdown of the Crowd at Soldier Field - i.e. were they mostly ex PAT Irish fans; Ex PAT Kiwis and actual neutral American fans; how many actually travelled from Ireland/NZ to make a holiday/vacation of their trip which included this game. Also the number of Americans who actually tuned into this whether it was online or cable TV. Not that I expect you or anyone else on the forum to have these figures, but still it would be interesting to see such stats to see if there really is the interest there for the game to grow significantly beyond just a Niche sport. World Rugby will be watching closely as I expect in the next 30 years they would like to hold a RWC in the US, but until they can justify getting the cost back at least, I don't see that happening any time soon.
 
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Yes and I am saying that this one loss is not going to make diddly squat difference to what Americans think about the ABs.

And you say registered players - how many? They may play, but doesn't mean they are interested in the ABs. American fans are interested in their own National team, not another country's national team, no matter how successful.

Population - 330 million. But again how many sports are competing in this sports market? Not even including their own major sports. As I said if anything it'll carve out a niche, if that. If RU is falling to about 4th or 5th in a country that has a rugby union tradition like Australia, what are the chances of it growing that big in a country like the US.

Americans are really beginning to enjoy rugby - means nothing. It's just your perception or opinion; doesn't mean that they would prioritise watching or playing rugby over their own sports.

The reputation ABs generated - this is marketing talk because ABs are sponsored by AIG, which is the main reason why ABs are playing tests in the US.

Your cynical attitude to the American market seems a little unjustified, unfair and uneducated IMO. I'm not claiming to have that much higher education in it, but I'm certainly not over-looking it like you are. As an American user pointed out "Americans like winners" - and the All Blacks didn't win. So I think our brand was damaged. We will no longer have that invincible aura to the Americans, which they love from sports teams.

I think it's a matter of exposure, I don't think as an England fan you have been exposed to the Americans interest in Rugby, where as we got coverage in our media of it, how the All Blacks are gaining popularity in America.
 
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Great win. But largely built off the back of effort and perspiration. An awful lot of people getting very carried away, both overrating the performance and players in the team as a result.


We'll do very well to be within 20 points of an angry ABs side that have some actual locks in the 2nd row back in Dublin.
 
Ah Jesus will you live a little. We outplayed them completely for at least 65 minutes, and if the game had gone another 10 minutes, we probably would have scored again. It wasn't some brave performance. It was a skilled, well rounded and aggressive performance. Not dumb luck. We're absolutely right to react how we have. Yes it will be different when they have their Second Rows back, but this is the world's best side with the world's best depth we're talking about. If you beat any 15 they put in front of you it's a huge achievement and a testament to this team.
 
Your cynical attitude to the American market seems a little unjustified, unfair and uneducated IMO. I'm not claiming to have that much higher education in it, but I'm certainly not over-looking it like you are. As an American user pointed out "Americans like winners" - and the All Blacks didn't win. So I think our brand was damaged. We will no longer have that invincible aura to the Americans, which they love from sports teams.

I think it's a matter of exposure, I don't think as an England fan you have been exposed to the Americans interest in Rugby, where as we got coverage in our media of it, how the All Blacks are gaining popularity in America.

Well, it's not unjustified. I have been there a number of time including to watch sport and it's just my general impression (hence why I am asking for numbers to back up that there is a growing interest and real market potential for growth for the 15s version of the sport). Also you consider the general insular nature of US market when it comes to sports and the fact that only a third of Americans have a passport and 2/3rds don't travel outside their own country and are pretty clueless of what is going on outside their own country. It's going to take a whole lot more than just "exposure" of one match to make the 15 man rugby union game appeal to the mass market in the US and not just a Niche sport. It's going to have really show a point of difference to the NFL and how it is more safe and prosper at school level, as well as appealing to the broad different social groups in the US (Whites/Hispanics/Afro Carribean/Asian etc). As well as the rules involved, which are not exactly simple (especially the breakdown). The 7s game will have a better chance IMO due to its simplicity.

I am sure ABs have their fan club in the US, but I am not convinced that this is big enough (unless you have specific numbers) to convince me that the ABs going their each year to play one game really "exposes" the game to the masses in the US.
 
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We outplayed them completely for at least 65 minutes.

We got the better of them for 60 odd minutes. Not outplayed completely, far from it. To think otherwise is incredibly one-eyed.

Even look at the number of clear line breaks they made, up the middle and out wide, versus ours. Look at the questions they asked of our defense every time they had the ball versus our very lateral game which successfully worked the fringes a couple of times.

Yeah, we won. Great credit to all involved. But we are a very long way from being on an equal footing. Don't delude yourself otherwise!
 
I think there's a tendency among fans to shout for changes changes changes following a loss - you may not be aware if this, ABs fans, since you'd previously forgotten what losing is, but take it from the rest of the world, shouting for kneejerk selection changes in forums and in comments sections is a traditional part of defeat.

Hansen and co aren't going to panic. You're still the best in the world, one loss doesn't invalidate the principles and tactics which led to 18 wins, nor the personnel. Any suggestion that Aaron Smith or Beaudon Barrett be dropped is madness, both are world class players who have been key parts of an extremely good team - dropping either of them is fan-on-a-forum thinking not international coach thinking.

You got beaten by a better team on the day, some players who normally have good games had bad days. That's sport.

I haven't been following the AB threads here that closely but are their comments all that kneejerk? Or are they continued thought processes on weaknesses identified while crushing everyone? Its not unusual for fans to look at aspects of play and say "A better team will punish us there" and its certainly not been unusual to look at the Rugby Championship as a whole and suspect that there should be better teams out there than those NZ played this year.
 
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