[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

[SomeOke]

South Africa

15 Warrick Gelant, 14 S'bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Andre Esterhuizen, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 RG Snyman, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Schalk Brits, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Jean-Luc du Preez, 20 Sikhumbuzo Notshe, 21 Embrose Papier 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux


Pretty out there team for the Bokke, can 100% see us losing this. Chilliboy at 2 makes the least sense to me, why not just start Akker van der Merve if you want to rotate hookers (obvious answer is he wants to balance quotas).
Otherwise the backline is pretty exciting, it's just pretty much debutants from 11-15...

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Jones has lost the plot... It's the forwards that are the main problem and he's doing nothing to address that.

I don't disagree that they have been the main issue, but what would you have Jones do?

1. Mako & Genge out, hands tied with Marler & Hepburn
2. Only really George & LCD to choose from, I concede LCD could start, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory thus far
3. As with Hooker, Williams could start but it's the difference between 45-50mins vs 30-35mins
4 & 5. Launch has to start and whilst Itoje has been inconsistent and ill-disciplined you can't honestly be suggesting that Isiekwe or Hill are better placed to help us stand up to the bokke pack?
6. I'll admit this is an odd selection to pick Robshaw over Shields, would like to know what you'd have done here.
7. Curry has been good, was a teenager until last week and needs time
8. Hughes - horrible reality is that we have no other option on tour, as with the 2nd row, please explain how you think any alternative option helps us turn out a pack that won't get bullied in the loose and at the breakdown?

I like the 3 "back 5" on the bench and think all three will make an impact, but given the areas we have been outplayed/outmuscled, I don't see how any of them - bar Wilson for Curry - would have helped us significantly by starting. The sad fact is we just don't have options on this tour to match SA. Would like to know what you'd have preferred though.

 

[ncurd]

Mind you I genuinely will have some amusement when turns out Cips isn't some back foot playing God and England score similar point to last two games and he misses a tackle completely leading to an opposition try.

England loosing will still suck though.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Mind you I genuinely will have some amusement when turns out Cips isn't some back foot playing God and England score similar point to last two games and he misses a tackle completely leading to an opposition try.

England loosing will still suck though.

If this doesn't happen and Cipriani does ignite the English attack. Will you promise to finally acknowledge his superiority to Ford and accept that the latter is not the best option for England moving forward? And also promise not to try and find any other possible reason to explain our improved performance and suggest that if Ford were playing, it would have been even better. Will you?

Also, "similar points to the last two games"? 39 vs 12, what would be considered similar...I see you have left the back door open already.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Jones has lost the plot... It's the forwards that are the main problem and he's doing nothing to address that.

Yeah although he's only got limited choices available.

He's got the best 6 front rowers, although you could argue that LCD and Williams should start. Wouldn't make a massive difference.

Few would argue with Launch. Itoje was marginally better last week, but still overdue some bench time.

Shields must surely be injured. In which case, although I don't like it, I can just about understand him falling back on the experience card. Esp with a pup at 7. If Shields isn't injured then it's time for the men in white coats.

Curry's probably a year or 2 off making a real impact at this level. But he's gone OK, learnt a lot and will be a better player for it. Pleasure to see the mythical "proper 7" and good that Jones has backed him.

Hughes isn't properly fit, but he's our only proper 8 and I wouldn't really want Simmonds going head to head with Duane if he plays.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Yeah although he's only got limited choices available.

He's got the best 6 front rowers, although you could argue that LCD and Williams should start. Wouldn't make a massive difference.

Few would argue with Launch. Itoje was marginally better last week, but still overdue some bench time.

Shields must surely be injured. In which case, although I don't like it, I can just about understand him falling back on the experience card. Esp with a pup at 7. If Shields isn't injured then it's time for the men in white coats.

Curry's probably a year or 2 off making a real impact at this level. But he's gone OK, learnt a lot and will be a better player for it. Pleasure to see the mythical "proper 7" and good that Jones has backed him.

Hughes isn't properly fit, but he's our only proper 8 and I wouldn't really want Simmonds going head to head with Duane if he plays.

Haha, we've literally just written the exact same post...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Haha, we've literally just written the exact same post...

Great minds!

 

[ncurd]

Actually when reffering similar score I was reffering to the first 15ish minuites. Plus you can't give credit to Ford for Itoje's score or May's in the first test. So Cips goal is 2-3 trys whilst he'd on field that are direct result of his attacking threat and then he'd on par with Ford.

Also I will have the caveat that if the forwards actually play well (which is incredibly unlikely) it would be unfair comparison between the two players.

What I'm expecting, no actual bloody difference and the entire thing being a red herring.

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

I must be losing my mind but I'm not really expecting England to spend so much time on the back foot this week. Altitude no longer an issue, Robshaw coming back after a rare week off and Hughes is surely getting fitter with every week of training. Throw in to that the 6-2 split and I doubt we'll see such a rapid decline in performance from the pack.

I'd guess we'll see a more standard match this week, a more back and forth game with England being competitive throughout. Not England blowing them away in the opening 20 minutes before being clawed back and doing **** all for ~50 minutes.

 

[Triple Exe]

He's got the best 6 front rowers, although you could argue that LCD and Williams should start. Wouldn't make a massive difference.

LCD could make a pretty significant difference as a carrier. It would, at least, be nice to see what he can bring to the starting line-up rather than 15 minutes off the bench.

 

[curtbob7]

This whole series has just been seriously mehhhh.

England to lose by 10pts.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I must be losing my mind but I'm not really expecting England to spend so much time on the back foot this week. Altitude no longer an issue, Robshaw coming back after a rare week off, and Hughes is surely getting fitter with every week of training. Throw in to that the 6-2 split and I doubt we'll see such a rapid decline in performance from the pack.

I'd guess we'll see a more standard match this week, a more back and forth game with England being competitive throughout. Not England blowing them away in the opening 20 minutes before being clawed back and doing **** all for ~50 minutes.

No reason that England can't start fast though...no variable has changed that should alter that. In fact the SA back line is even more inexperienced and could leave them open to being more exposed out wide after a couple of phases. I also think that the sheer physicality of the springbok pack will wear us down and bring them back into the game, but if we use the bench well + lack of altitude, I think we stand to perform better this week.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wilson, Simmonds and Isiekwe would all be better options at 6 than Robshaw.

6-2 bench, on paper, is a risk - but Eddie rarely subs backs for more than a token 2-3mins at the end so it means little.

Happy to see Cips start and happy to see Curry retain the 7 shirt for the full tour. As mentioned above he's realistically a year or two from making a serious impact at international level but it's promising that he's still trusted and hasn't been "Isiekwed" for not making 50 turnovers a game

 

[Gena_ZA]

South Africa

15 Warrick Gelant, 14 S'bu Nkosi, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Andre Esterhuizen, 11 Aphiwe Dyantyi, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 6 Siya Kolisi (captain), 5 Franco Mostert, 4 RG Snyman, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Chiliboy Ralepelle, 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Schalk Brits, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Thomas du Toit, 19 Jean-Luc du Preez, 20 Sikhumbuzo Notshe, 21 Embrose Papier 22 Handre Pollard, 23 Willie le Roux


Pretty out there team for the Bokke, can 100% see us losing this. Chilliboy at 2 makes the least sense to me, why not just start Akker van der Merve if you want to rotate hookers (obvious answer is he wants to balance quotas).
Otherwise the backline is pretty exciting, it's just pretty much debutants from 11-15...

See the Boks loosing this? Se ri aaaas??
Nope we will take this, see England team , EJ has lost the plot or is a mastermind and 99.9999% can't see the magic of this works
Wonder why Rassie did not give Mapimpi a go, even on the bench
Happy with the rest, trying to see from the coaches view and not my own (especially at hooker)
Very strong midfiled, good luck Slade..
Looking forward to see Papier on the field, hope he gets at least 20 minutes, massive talent, just needs exposure
Seems Robert du Preez is not in the mix anymore

 

[ratsapprentice]

I do hope we see the bench guys get a nice big 35-40 mins to do some work.

Would really like to see how Wilson and Simmonds go against a very physical side.

Excited to see Gelant.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I don't disagree that they have been the main issue, but what would you have Jones do?

1. Mako & Genge out, hands tied with Marler & Hepburn
2. Only really George & LCD to choose from, I concede LCD could start, but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory thus far
3. As with Hooker, Williams could start but it's the difference between 45-50mins vs 30-35mins
4 & 5. Launch has to start and whilst Itoje has been inconsistent and ill-disciplined you can't honestly be suggesting that Isiekwe or Hill are better placed to help us stand up to the bokke pack?
6. I'll admit this is an odd selection to pick Robshaw over Shields, would like to know what you'd have done here.
7. Curry has been good, was a teenager until last week and needs time
8. Hughes - horrible reality is that we have no other option on tour, as with the 2nd row, please explain how you think any alternative option helps us turn out a pack that won't get bullied in the loose and at the breakdown?

I like the 3 "back 5" on the bench and think all three will make an impact, but given the areas we have been outplayed/outmuscled, I don't see how any of them - bar Wilson for Curry - would have helped us significantly by starting. The sad fact is we just don't have options on this tour to match SA. Would like to know what you'd have preferred though.

1. No issue with this, would have recommended Mako being dropped if he didn't have to leave
2. LCD. George has failed to produce on every single start he's had in an England shirt and I can't see that being any different this week
3. Williams. He his rucks well and I think him and Sinks need to swap starter-finisher roles
4. Launch
5. Drop Itoje. May or may not improve our performance but this isn't the first time he has gone out and given away a ton of idiotic penalties yet still not been dropped. We are breeding a sense that he is undroppable and it must be nipped in the bud or he will be the next Robshaw, in the team regardless of performance.
6. I didn't know Shields was ill but Robshaw should not be back in. 1 week of rest isn't enough and I'd rather have Wilson in at 6.
7. Curry, no issue with that
8. Hughes but this was poor management on Jones' part taking 2 8's on tour at high altitude when both were below match fitness at sea level.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Doesn't matter how good your backs are, if your smashed up front they aren't going to get the ball. While there is impact from the bench there, the England back row can be best described as pedestrian. I know SA have a slightly weaker team that last week (perhaps I'm being a bit harsh to some players) however as an England fan I would have been more confident of the team from last week getting an result than this one. I don't understand the point of taking players then not even giving them a chance.

 

[SomeOke]

See the Boks loosing this? Se ri aaaas??
Nope we will take this, see England team , EJ has lost the plot or is a mastermind and 99.9999% can't see the magic of this works
Wonder why Rassie did not give Mapimpi a go, even on the bench
Happy with the rest, trying to see from the coaches view and not my own (especially at hooker)
Very strong midfiled, good luck Slade..
Looking forward to see Papier on the field, hope he gets at least 20 minutes, massive talent, just needs exposure
Seems Robert du Preez is not in the mix anymore

Haha I love how as fans we go from, "The Bokke are the worst they have ever been and I hate my life." to after two games "All we do is win win win no matter what."

Here are my concerns:

• First game not at altitude
• Big changes in the back line including key players like Pollard and le Roux
• The players replacing Pollard and le Roux while talented are probably less suited to a wet weather game plan (and it looks like it's going to be wet.
• Bongi has magically become a set piece hooker in the last 2 tests, so we were lucky to maintain a good set piece, a change in hooker for someone who has barely played rugby in 3 years and a retired guy hardly inspires confidence.
• I'm going to the game which spells doom.

I think there are enough concerned there that victory is far from certain.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm not a massive fan of janties, I know it may just be coincidental but every time I watch him, he is poor.

 

[SomeOke]

I'm not a massive fan of janties, I know it may just be coincidental but every time I watch him, he is poor.

He can look word class, and when he's on song hes our best distributing 10 by miles BUT he's only good when the following two criteria are met: It's not a pressure match AND his forward pack is dominant, given this is test rugby it means he's pretty useless. Deserves a chance to play under a coach that isn't Allister Coetzee though, I suppose.