[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

[Durbanite]

Glen Jackson for this one if I'm not mistaken?

There's talk of Schalk Brits playing, whether he starts or comes in off the bench remains to be seen.

Rassie has said he wants to put some guys under pressure and that there would be "4 or 5" changes.

My guess is perhaps TdT starting, faf moves to the bench, possibly a new 10 and/or 15, a new centre pairing and perhaps a change out wide but I don't really think its necessary or likely. Kriel starting for Am is a high possibility. As for DDA he is constantly blowing hot and cold, with a few good touches but there's far too much bad in his game still imo, Esterhuizen is the better 12.

Malcolm Marx

.....

declared fit

HNNNNNNNG :O

I doubt we'll see them this weekend, but that's some good news right there!

Anyways, consensus seems to point to a team that looks a little bit like this.

1. Mtawarira
2. Mbonambi
3. TdT
4. Snyman
5. Mostert
6. Kolisi
7. JLdP/PSdT
8. Vermuelen
9. Van Zyl
10. Pollard
11. Dyantyi
12. Esterhuizen
13. Kriel
14. Nkosi
15. Gelant/le Roux

Kitshoff
Brits
Malherbe/???
JLdP/PSdT
Notshe/???
Faf
Jaintjies/RdP as FH cover or DDA/Am as centre cover
Gelant/le Roux

Looks a little iffy, I'm unsure Van Zyl is the answer at 9, but I'd like to see what he can do given a start, faf is a great impact scrummy anyway.
I could see changes at lock, Vermuelen perhaps on the bench but I doubt it'll happen. I have a feeling we're going to play it safe at 10 and stick with Pollard, it's more likely that we'll try something different at 15 imo.

Whichever team runs out, Rassie will want a win and I think they'll be looking to turn the screws and go for the whitewash. Seeing as this is probably the last test at Newlands let's hope both teams come to compete and it's better than just another dead rubber.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I highly doubt it, he has made a couple of comments now about wanting to reward the players who have been a part of the process throughout. Rushing those guys in on a Tuesday with no experience on a training field with Rassie 4 days at most before the final test seems unlikely. I'm sure for the Rugby Championship though.

I was thinking more in the line of joining the group for training in preparation for the RC. Would be silly to give them a run 4 days after they have been declared fit.

As for this weekend's game, here's the changes I think we'll see:

1. Kitshoff - 17. Beast
2. Schalk Brits - 18. Bongi Mbonambi
3. Thomas Du Toit - 16. Frans Malherbe
9. Embrose Papier - 21. Faf De Klerk
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Jesse Kriel - 22. Lukhanyo Am
15. Warrick Gelant - 23. Willie Le Roux

Maybe we'll see PSDT move to lock and JL Du Preez back at flank.

But mostly I think the changes will be made based on the weather. If it's going to be wet and cold, I could see a centre pairing of Esterhuizen and De Allende being selected.

 

[unrated]

The team i would like to see, trying to maintain some form of consistency but also to give some overworked players a "bye" before Super rugby starts again would be :

1. Kitshoff
2.Akker
3. du Toit
4.PSdT
5.RG Snyman (Mostert hasnt been that great)
6. Kolisi
7.JL du Preez
8.Vermeulen/ Dan du Preez
9. de Klerk
10. Pollard/Robert du Preez
11. Mapimpi
12. Esterhuizen
13. Kriel
14. Nkosi
15. Le Roux



This is not a b team, this is a team who would give last weeks team a serious run for their money if not better. Vermeulen to get a nice rest but to come on in the second half.



Whiteley should never be captain again, he is too injury prone. Vermeulen is our first choice going forward. Mapimpi did well against the Welsh and is the deadliest finisher of all the wings so we shouldnt forget about him. His kick chases are also extraordinary.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The team i would like to see, trying to maintain some form of consistency but also to give some overworked players a "bye" before Super rugby starts again would be :

1. Kitshoff
2.Akker
3. du Toit
4.PSdT
5.RG Snyman (Mostert hasnt been that great)
6. Kolisi
7.JL du Preez
8.Vermeulen/ Dan du Preez
9. de Klerk
10. Pollard/Robert du Preez
11. Mapimpi
12. Esterhuizen
13. Kriel
14. Nkosi
15. Le Roux



This is not a b team, this is a team who would give last weeks team a serious run for their money if not better. Vermeulen to get a nice rest but to come on in the second half.



Whiteley should never be captain again, he is too injury prone. Vermeulen is our first choice going forward. Mapimpi did well against the Welsh and is the deadliest finisher of all the wings so we shouldnt forget about him. His kick chases are also extraordinary.

How Sharky of you...

 

[unrated]

How Sharky of you...

Oh my ! I didnt even realize there were that many Sharks .

If we were to bring in Mapimpi for this weekend and i really think Rassie should. Should it be for Nkosi or Dyanti ?

 

[unrated]

I hope Brits starts, Someone pointed out a video of Farrell and Brits in an altercation during the 2013 Lions tour. Didn't even know this happened.

 

[Gena_ZA]

I was thinking more in the line of joining the group for training in preparation for the RC. Would be silly to give them a run 4 days after they have been declared fit.

As for this weekend's game, here's the changes I think we'll see:

1. Kitshoff - 17. Beast
2. Schalk Brits - 18. Bongi Mbonambi
3. Thomas Du Toit - 16. Frans Malherbe
9. Embrose Papier - 21. Faf De Klerk
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Jesse Kriel - 22. Lukhanyo Am
15. Warrick Gelant - 23. Willie Le Roux

Maybe we'll see PSDT move to lock and JL Du Preez back at flank.

But mostly I think the changes will be made based on the weather. If it's going to be wet and cold, I could see a centre pairing of Esterhuizen and De Allende being selected.

This but I want Andre Esterhuizen <-> Lukhanyo Am combination to mature
Jesse is the perfect sub covering 3 spots
I would also like to see Mapimpi given a go

 

[Gena_ZA]

I would let Schalk Brits play and then use him as a consultant/assistant coach going forward
He has so much to offer

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Dan Robson is down in the squad on Wikipedia but did he travel to SA?

Jones suffers from chronic confirmation bias and when Robson wasn't fab in his barbarians cameo, EJ took it as confirmation that Robson was never that great.(when really he should be starting)

My worry is that Jones won't feel like he's got time to play the long game by trying to mix it up and will instead try and force his favourites into some form.

It's funny that this time last time we were in SA we came to the third test and I was so glad to see Haskell come in. Yes he's highly flawed but he gives his all. Wish he could come in and captain the side, just as a one off.

I'm keen to know how much Jones feels he's learned this tour about individual players.

Unless he mixes things up he's learned nothing about Spencer, Robson, Cipriani, Isiekwe, Wilson etc. These guys could make all the difference but we've seen virtually nothing of most of them

The newish guys who've come in and got some reasonable game time are hard to judge because even if they've not set the pitch alight that's understandable given the team performances as a whole. These guys haven't proven exactly that they are what we need but obviously nor have they eliminated themselves - I'm thinking Slade, Curry, Shields.

Then you've got the majority cohort which is guys who've been in the england side at both its highest and lowest points. We know they can be world class but have also learned how dogshit they can be when they put their minds to it. I won't list them as it's a lot of the squad. But this knowledge hardly helps. It would be helpful to me if I were England coach but since Jones will keep picking them anyway...

...That Johnny May, may be in fact more than just a very fast weird bloke he should be playing non contact sports - is that the learning???!

To salvage something from this tour we need to look past flogging the existing favourites further and think about learning more about newer players - looking beyond the effects of fatigue, altitude, the lack of any instilled discipline etc which won't be immediately fixed, to looking instead to who brings a special something that we don't already know about.

We also as a matter of terrible urgency need to find some leaders from somewhere.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We lack discipline....so you want to bring in Haskell

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

We lack discipline....so you want to bring in Haskell

I know how crazy it sounds... but the way see it, there's so much competition for giving away penalties right now Haskell wouldn't have time

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I know how crazy it sounds... but the way see it, there's so much competition for giving away penalties right now Haskell wouldn't have time

Or maybe he'll act like baking soda in a smelly fridge, absorbing all the evil.
He'll give away so many penalties that no one else has to - when he gets binned, or subbed, everyone else continues playing without giving away penalties cause he's already done it all.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I wonder how May would have done in 7's

 

[Triple Exe]

My worry is that Jones won't feel like he's got time to play the long game by trying to mix it up and will instead try and force his favourites into some form.

That's the tricky bit about managing a team. You can't just change out the whole thing, that won't tell you anything. You have to gradually change out bits of the machine and replace them with others to see what happens. It's also the downside of the starters/finishers model in that it doesn't really allow you to bring in many new players. If Care's your finisher, then he's just as much "first name on the team-sheet" as Youngs.

It's mental that Isiekwe's first proper England start is away against SA. He had, what, two caps as a sub in the Argentina "development tour" before that?

There's a real danger this tour is going to set some players international careers back a long way.

 

[User1245]

I would like our wing combination to stay with Gelant getting a go, with Mapimpi on the bench. Our new wingers need as much time the Bok jersey as possible in my opinion and Cape Town is going to offer up different conditions so we can see how they adapt. Did anybody else notice that they both over ran their kick chases consistently? I don't know if this was a tactic? Certainly not something they can do against the All Blacks or Wallabies.

I agree with AE replacing DDA. We should really give the AE and Am combo a go. Am is getting the short straw being outside DDA, just like Mapoe was.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Several outlets reporting that Cips is likely to start at 10.

Unbelievable stat of the day. It would be his first start in a decade.

 

[spartan32]

Several outlets reporting that Cips is likely to start at 10.

Unbelievable stat of the day. It would be his first start in a decade.

I think he has too. Surely? Ford just isn't cutting it against this SA side, mostly down to our pack being weaker than there's in nearly every facet of the game. If he starts again on Saturday we will just get more of the same. He's not the right fit for this team as it currently stands and so we need to look elsewhere. Farrell could move to 10 but I think this seems like a great opportunity to give Cips a well deserved shot. The bigger question is, what if he plays a blinder? Will EJ continue to bench Ford in his favour for the next game?

I also wonder whether Young's needs to bench this one too. We clearly are too weak in the pack to out muscle SA so out best bet is to shift the ball fast from rucks, mauls, and scrums and keep really mobile. Young's isn't much good at doing that. He's slow to get the ball away and always has to take a step and rarely threatens with a darting run. Maybe time
For a more dynamic option to take the field?

Think this is unlikely though as Jones has made clear in the press that England already struggle for experience and he doesn't want to change very much.

Not sure we can beat this SA team with what we have in any event. But I would be happy just to see the penalty count dramatically drop, and the decision making and game management improve.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The last time Cipriani started, the Currys were in primary school
Lol

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think he has too. Surely? Ford just isn't cutting it against this SA side, mostly down to our pack being weaker than there's in nearly every facet of the game. If he starts again on Saturday we will just get more of the same. He's not the right fit for this team as it currently stands and so we need to look elsewhere. Farrell could move to 10 but I think this seems like a great opportunity to give Cips a well deserved shot. The bigger question is, what if he plays a blinder? Will EJ continue to bench Ford in his favour for the next game?

I also wonder whether Young's needs to bench this one too. We clearly are too weak in the pack to out muscle SA so out best bet is to shift the ball fast from rucks, mauls, and scrums and keep really mobile. Young's isn't much good at doing that. He's slow to get the ball away and always has to take a step and rarely threatens with a darting run. Maybe time
For a more dynamic option to take the field?

Think this is unlikely though as Jones has made clear in the press that England already struggle for experience and he doesn't want to change very much.

Not sure we can beat this SA team with what we have in any event. But I would be happy just to see the penalty count dramatically drop, and the decision making and game management improve.

Good point on Youngs. SH is the real heartbeat of a team and FDK has shown what a difference a real live wire there can make. Sure Youngs used to be far more adventurous and upbeat.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Youngs has always been pretty hit or miss,
Having care snapping at his heels really encouraged him on under Jones (And same for care, fighting for his spot). Whenever one is out if the side the other always tends to look worse.

I wouldn't be adverse to getting a proper look at Spencer (would like to see Robson get a shot but Spencer is more realistic)