[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

[TRF_Olyy]

Was there a reason given why Armand wasn't taken?

Probably a mixture of his age and his experience level.

I think the only backrower he's definitely better than (If EJ sees Wilson as a last resort lock, bumping his stock) is Robshaw and EJ was never dropping Robshaw for Armand.

I think he probably should have gone but I'm not exactly losing sleep over him missing out

 

[ncurd]

Ford is the golden boy and must never be criticised.

Look I'm pretty much an unapologetic Ford supporter but I think you'd agree that some have had the knives out for Ford since day 1 some weren't satisfied even when they were winning everything.

No one said cipriani was the only change that needed to be made, just that he's one that we wanted to see. Obviously every one wanted the pack strengthened, that was never in question.
Cipriani doesn't have the some pack, anyway. He's got neither Vunipola, so we're missing our two best heavy carriers right off the bat. He also has to deal with Robshaw, which we didn't last week.
3/8 of this pack is a significant step down from last week.

Mako has been a liability this tour and should of been dropped anyway Billy yeah its step down but he was still recovering fitness I honestly wish he hadn't been on tour.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly I'm still saying what I said earlier 2-3 trys and Cips has only proven he was as capable as Ford on this tour. Does that mean he should start in the Autumn Internationals? Honestly its a toss a coin decision but I'm more for continuity than chopping and changing for no good reason. But technically he'd be holder of the shirt.

We know what the real problem are and we should be way more focused on that than trying to decide which 10 gets a rough ride of thing and made a scapegoat when people don't understand they don't play well behnd beaten packs.

 

[unrated]

just having 3 locks is spreading it a bit thin. I think Rassie has the right idea of building a core group. Remember that we are building towards the RWC next year. So while there is a balancing act, Rassie can't just keep on blooding new faces, he also has to get the core group's cap numbers up.

I also have this suspicion that a certain flanker playing in Ireland will soon be called up...

Well i thought it would be vanselfsprekend that RG would also be part of the future squads since he played so well, thats why i didnt mention him.

You can either be talking about Marcell Coetzee or Cloete, and since the former is injured and the latter has played under this coach at Munster i would say it is a possibility.

 

[Scotty]

So our options at 10

Ford - defensive issues and not the running game he used to but if people around him are running good lines then he is great at picking the right option and putting them through

Faz - not as creative so gets put at 12. But defensivly alot better than ford and cips and behind a strong pack has proved he can hold up with sarries.

Cips - can do that magic and has a good running game and workrate in attack de doesnt just pass the ball but gets back into another attacking position. but is older and good for right now but not really post wc and does still have defensive issues.

Loz - i include him as he is an option but rightly 4th choice 10 yet right now should be our first choice 12 IMO, he is quick, great hands, and hits hard, defensivly sound(hits hard just look at the hit he put on waldrom in the prem), alot more of a running threat than faz in my opinion (still bitter he hasnt got a shot, anyone know the reason?)

Cips deserves his chance and i hope he does well.


What happens in the backs with subs? Cips off faz to 10, daly to 13. Brown to 15 solo to 14. Spose we have got it all covered but risk on a 6 2 split

 

[SomeOke]

Well i thought it would be vanselfsprekend that RG would also be part of the future squands since he played so well, thats why i didnt mention him.

You can either be talking about Marcell Coetzee or Cloete, and sincd the former is injured and the latter has played undee this coach at Munster i would say it is a possibility.

Pretty sure he is talking about Marcell Coetzee, I've heard whispers he's in contention too.

 

[Durbanite]

Biggest surprises on the team for me are definitely TdT not starting with Malherbe being a bit iffy and Ralepelle's rather sudden appearance. Would've preferred Mbonambi and Pollard started and Brits/Ralepelle and Elton came off the bench but it's not a bad team. Glad Esterhuizen is getting his start, let's hope he shines. It's a pity Am is out, he's really suffered playing off DDA imo, pairing him with AE would've helped his game and allowed him to hit those deadly lines again. People saying Kriel is on fire lately so hopefully that's the case. Excited to see Papier and Gelant in action.

A bit worried about defence out wide still and perhaps PSdT should've been started as a lock with JL at 7 and Mostert on the bench for this one. Seeing Brits run on should be strange, I am doubtful of his usefulness with all our options at hooker, but with Rassie wanting experienced chaps rubbing shoulders with newbies it's a good way to go.

It's definitely a team that can get the job done and I'm still in the honeymoon phase where all changes make sense but I think Newlands won't be as easy for us as Ellis Park or Bloem, combined with wet weather should make this closer than the second test imo

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Honestly I'm still saying what I said earlier 2-3 trys and Cips has only proven he was as capable as Ford on this tour. Does that mean he should start in the Autumn Internationals? Honestly its a toss a coin decision but I'm more for continuity than chopping and changing for no good reason. But technically he'd be holder of the shirt.

We know what the real problem are and we should be way more focused on that than trying to decide which 10 gets a rough ride of thing and made a scapegoat when people don't understand they don't play well behnd beaten packs.

Honest to god, what do you see from Ford that is so spectacular? He's got a nice passing game on him. So does Cipriani, so does Farrell. Honestly how many things does he do where you think, "only George Ford could do that"? His kicking out of hand is very average for an international 10. He's 5ft 8, slightly built and weak in defence and at the breakdown as a result. He doesn't ever seem to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and will his team to victory like other top fly-halfs (Sexton, Biggar, Barrrett, Farrell) have all done. His form has also been bang average at best all season and on this tour! Yes we have other problems that need fixing, but this isn't bloody fantasy rugby where you can only swap one or two players out each week! 10 is the most important position and we have players available who could well be better than the incumbent, let's play them!

I honestly can't see how you are such a blind supporter of a player with so many obvious flaws and who hasn't had the form to remind us of his many talents for over a year! Things change, players change, Fordy moved on from Bath, now it's time that you move on from this obsession. Danny's waiting, Danny loves you, come to Danny...

 

[unrated]

Pretty sure he is talking about Marcell Coetzee, I've heard whispers he's in contention too.

That decision would have my full support. I consider Coetzee to be one of the best flanks that South Africa has produced in the last ten years, but I really hope he can get past the injury worries. We should really consider capping Cloete though, Rassie would have had first hand knowledge of him but as far as I understand he is injured too. Even if we can at least just cap him once so that he cant play for Ireland it would be nice.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Isekwe broke his hand in wrestling training... Wrestling training

 

[unrated]

Honest to god, what do you see from Ford that is so spectacular?

I read this and thought that I should go and search what Eddie is saying about him, maybe get the coaches viewpoint. In an attempt to understand his motive.

Here is EJ in a video:



Eddie Motivates his liking of Ford in the following quotes:
"I know he's a good player but he needs to be instinctive so when we get him back in the camp, our job is to make sure we open up that instinctiveness for him.

"George can play the game, it is getting his mental, physical and emotional balance right, and you can go in and out of that. As a 10 you can't be there all the time.

"Our game is based on collective talent," he explained. "We don't have a lot of guys individually who can run through brick walls, we don't have a lot of big carriers.

"So we've got to be inventive in how we play, we've got to do it through collective talent."

"George and Owen together see the game better than anyone."

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

He doesn't ever seem to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and will his team to victory like other top fly-halfs (Sexton, Biggar, Barrrett, Farrell) have all done.

Sexton, Biggar and Barrett are rarely behind packs that are being bullied and when they have been, they've lost. Farrell has NEVER taken a game by the scruff of the neck for England and has been behind 3 of our most embarrassing defeats (Wales 2013, Wales + Aus world cup). He does it for Sarries? Oh yeah, behind a dominant pack. When did Ford's form drop for Bath? When our pack started getting bullied. See a trend yet?

Can you point to a 10 who has actually put in good performances behind weak packs rather than choosing 10's who have operated behind a solid set of forwards?

This isn't about saying Ford can't be criticised, it's about saying it's unfair to criticise him for failures in the forwards. All the 10's you listed above would struggle behind our pack.

 

[ncurd]

Honest to god, what do you see from Ford that is so spectacular? He's got a nice passing game on him. So does Cipriani, so does Farrell. Honestly how many things does he do where you think, "only George Ford could do that"? His kicking out of hand is very average for an international 10. He's 5ft 8, slightly built and weak in defence and at the breakdown as a result. He doesn't ever seem to grab a game by the scruff of the neck and will his team to victory like other top fly-halfs (Sexton, Biggar, Barrrett, Farrell) have all done. His form has also been bang average at best all season and on this tour! Yes we have other problems that need fixing, but this isn't bloody fantasy rugby where you can only swap one or two players out each week! 10 is the most important position and we have players available who could well be better than the incumbent, let's play them!

I honestly can't see how you are such a blind supporter of a player with so many obvious flaws and who hasn't had the form to remind us of his many talents for over a year! Things change, players change, Fordy moved on from Bath, now it's time that you move on from this obsession. Danny's waiting, Danny loves you, come to Danny...

I don't see why people have such a problem with Ford as you do.

And sorry fly half don't grab a game by the scruff of their neck and single handidly win matches its fallacy that come from our psyche to misunderstand this a team game. I've sene forward lead the charge and inspire those around them but fly-half sorry it simply doesn't happen. Wilko never really did it and neither did Carter they both had monster packs as well to play with many of whom are consider for all time XV's.

In terms of passing game I've never seen Farrell do it as consistently as Ford does hell Ford has done it past two games whereas with Farrell does it once every couple of games.

Kicking from hand....its a bit like his running game hes a long way from his top form. He has been exceptional in this regard in, regularly so at one stage of his career. I actually think its more a tactical England problem than a Ford problem we are a lot better than we once were but we seam to utterly shambolic at times. I think our love of box kick it detrimental in this regard when passing it to the first receiver could yield far better results. Anyway I don't consider him vastly inferior to Farrell.

I will play a superior attacking option over a defensive one every time. And thats what you get on the Ford V Farrell debate, and Ford defensive frailties are vastly overstated.

Against Cipriani honestly I think there is very little between the two they pretty much offer the exactly same thing. But to go back to your fantasy rugby comment, rugby is one of the biggest team sports there is terms of of the relianace on the 'team' one person providing a bit magic can make a difference in a tight game but otherwise the superior team (on that day) wins every time. Team cohesion is build around systems and understanding how players play, part of what made Ford/Farrell so sucessful was the time they've played together since kids. Its why we talk about half back parings and units. By playing Cipriani we are breaking that cohesion for a like for like player and it probably won't yield better results because our forwards are completely shafted currently. More importantly we are shaking up things a year out from a world cup in areas which are not failing as they've put us in winning positions both matches so far. do you remember what happened last world cup where we still experimenting with starting line up even during it? I do and it wasn't pleasent.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

Can you point to a 10 who has actually put in good performances behind weak packs rather than choosing 10's who have operated behind a solid set of forwards?

This isn't about saying Ford can't be criticised, it's about saying it's unfair to criticise him for failures in the forwards. All the 10's you listed above would struggle behind our pack.

Cipriani played well behind a relatively weak pack all season, Finn Russell played well this season behind a pretty average Glasgow and Scotland pack, Marcus Smith was a standout player behind one of the weakest (form wise) packs in the premiership, Rhys Patchell for Scarlets was exceptional at times this season, their pack is certainly not dominant...But of course based on the above we might as well recall Andy Goode and stick him at 10 because the only thing that matters is the pack dominance...

On current form (both for club and country) Ford offers no real running threat, average out of hand kicking, doesn't kick for goal or touch for England and is a massive defensive liability. How the f*** can he be the best option for England? Continuity? In case you hadn't realised we have lost 5 games on the bounce, I think continuity might not be what we need at the moment.

 

[Fuzzy du Plessis]

You've managed to entirely miss the point that the place where changes were needed for us to function effectively is in the pack. That's what I meant when I said set up to fail, because there are still key issues there.

Well I suppose that should've been obvious to me, given that your only complaints were about 9 and 11. The only time you even mentioned the pack was when you said that it would've been beaten up without the Wasps man starting at 8.

Besides, the point still stands. If Eddie had made substantial changes then any point of difference could be attributed to that instead of Danny. For better or worse Eddie has played what he believes to be his best available side, so quite how you could imagine Cipriani has been set up to fail is beyond me. If Eddie had made a raft of changes I get the feeling you would've been unhappy that Cipriani had been thrown into a scratch side.

In the first test we had Robshaw starting a match at altitude and only 2 locks in the 23, one of which was was eligible for the u20s WC and was removed in the first half. Using your logic it would be just as ridiculous to say Ford was set up to fail so Cipriani could be brought in.


Anyway, I'm not sure there's any need to worry about Cips. I think England will be much more up for it this week for the reasons stated earlier, and I can definitely see him making the 10 shirt his own for some time. Keep the faith.

 

[Mr Ruggleby]

I don't see why people have such a problem with Ford as you do.

And sorry fly half don't grab a game by the scruff of their neck and single handidly win matches its fallacy that come from our psyche to misunderstand this a team game. I've sene forward lead the charge and inspire those around them but fly-half sorry it simply doesn't happen. Wilko never really did it and neither did Carter they both had monster packs as well to play with many of whom are consider for all time XV's.

In terms of passing game I've never seen Farrell do it as consistently as Ford does hell Ford has done it past two games whereas with Farrell does it once every couple of games.

Kicking from hand....its a bit like his running game hes a long way from his top form. He has been exceptional in this regard in, regularly so at one stage of his career. I actually think its more a tactical England problem than a Ford problem we are a lot better than we once were but we seam to utterly shambolic at times. I think our love of box kick it detrimental in this regard when passing it to the first receiver could yield far better results. Anyway I don't consider him vastly inferior to Farrell.

I will play a superior attacking option over a defensive one every time. And thats what you get on the Ford V Farrell debate, and Ford defensive frailties are vastly overstated.

Against Cipriani honestly I think there is very little between the two they pretty much offer the exactly same thing. But to go back to your fantasy rugby comment, rugby is one of the biggest team sports there is terms of of the relianace on the 'team' one person providing a bit magic can make a difference in a tight game but otherwise the superior team (on that day) wins every time. Team cohesion is build around systems and understanding how players play, part of what made Ford/Farrell so sucessful was the time they've played together since kids. Its why we talk about half back parings and units. By playing Cipriani we are breaking that cohesion for a like for like player and it probably won't yield better results because our forwards are completely shafted currently. More importantly we are shaking up things a year out from a world cup in areas which are not failing as they've put us in winning positions both matches so far. do you remember what happened last world cup where we still experimenting with starting line up even during it? I do and it wasn't pleasent.

I think we will end up going round in circles on this, but to summarise for me: You can't be the best team in the world when the only thing your 10 is bringing to the party (based on current form) is a great front-foot passing game. If he finds his career best form running and kicking out of hand, then I would overlook the issues his size present defensively and at the breakdown. Until then, give someone else a shot. Continuity stops being valuable when we stop progressing as a team. We almost look like we are regressing now, so it's time to change.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Isekwe broke his hand in wrestling training... Wrestling training

I mean six nations is only 7 months away. England needs someone who can handle moriarty.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Stop with the fake humble-ness!
This is the worst side England have put out so far, considering you won the first two you should be huge favourites going into this!

Good grief. Whatever happened to English Arrogance?

 

[Bull]

Bok front row looks a bit iffy, Malherbe isn't fit yet not that I really rate him, Chilliboy can't scrum and Beast barely lasts 50min. If the scrum is under pressure then Elton is going to struggle, would have like Rassie to give Du Preez a go at 10. Glad Am is out, I seriously don't rate him, he is a CC/SR player at best much like Bobo. I see guys mentioning Mapimpi, while he's a prolific try scorer his defense is even more suspect than Nkosi's.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Isekwe broke his hand in wrestling training... Wrestling training

FFS. Seriously, what is going on in England training??

Off the top of my head over the last year or 2 that's Isiekwe, Sam Jones (judo, retired), Watson broken jaw, Nowell torn thigh, Obano year out with knee, Teo minor quad but still ruled out for tour. I think there are more, didn't Underhill also return from Eng training "broken"?

Accidents and injuries happen, but these aren't bumps and bruises. We've got enough problems without self inflicted damage.

Really do wonder what Jones and his team are up to.