[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] South Africa vs. England (23/06/2018)

[TRF_Olyy]

FFS. Seriously, what is going on in England training??

Off the top of my head over the last year or 2 that's Isiekwe, Sam Jones (judo, retired), Watson broken jaw, Nowell torn thigh, Obano year out with knee, Teo minor quad but still ruled out for tour. I think there are more, didn't Underhill also return from Eng training "broken"?

Accidents and injuries happen, but these aren't bumps and bruises. We've got enough problems without self inflicted damage.

Really do wonder what Jones and his team are up to.

Tom curry really badly broke his hand and wrist in England training as well, he's more metal than man in that limb now

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think someone stepped on Underhill's bare foot with their studs in a non-training accident.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think someone stepped on Underhill's bare foot with their studs in a non-training accident.

Probably by order of Jones to see how tough he was

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I like to think that it was WWE style wrestling, the kind of wrestling you would do as kids in the living room back in the golden days of wrestling pretending to be XXX or The Rock, till that one kid (Prob Marler) took it too far and hit someone with a real chair.


Ah Good times.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Well I suppose that should've been obvious to me, given that your only complaints were about 9 and 11. The only time you even mentioned the pack was when you said that it would've been beaten up without the Wasps man starting at 8.

Besides, the point still stands. If Eddie had made substantial changes then any point of difference could be attributed to that instead of Danny. For better or worse Eddie has played what he believes to be his best available side, so quite how you could imagine Cipriani has been set up to fail is beyond me. If Eddie had made a raft of changes I get the feeling you would've been unhappy that Cipriani had been thrown into a scratch side.

In the first test we had Robshaw starting a match at altitude and only 2 locks in the 23, one of which was was eligible for the u20s WC and was removed in the first half. Using your logic it would be just as ridiculous to say Ford was set up to fail so Cipriani could be brought in.


Anyway, I'm not sure there's any need to worry about Cips. I think England will be much more up for it this week for the reasons stated earlier, and I can definitely see him making the 10 shirt his own for some time. Keep the faith.

I'm pretty sure from previous comments we've all made that we're on virtually the same page re the pack.

The reason I'm talking about being set up to fail is that Cipriani is the one who has to prove himself, not Ford. Evidence of the number of caps Ford has accrued under Jones suggests Ford doesn't need to prove anything new to Jones who already recognises what he brings. He has been selected persistently despite the peaks and troughs in his club career. In contrast Ciprianis domestic form went up and up for years and he's only just getting a chance now. Problem is, one bad game for someone who is not a Jones favourite goes a lot further than one bad game for someone who is - just see what happened with Robsons weak cameo against the baabaas compared to all the dross ben young has served up over time.

What I meant by set up to fail is not beong given the platform to prove fully what he can bring. The difference is ford doesn't need that platform since jones is already a believer, and he'll probably revert to him if cipriani has anything other than a sensational game.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Cipriani played well behind a relatively weak pack all season, Finn Russell played well this season behind a pretty average Glasgow and Scotland pack, Marcus Smith was a standout player behind one of the weakest (form wise) packs in the premiership, Rhys Patchell for Scarlets was exceptional at times this season, their pack is certainly not dominant...But of course based on the above we might as well recall Andy Goode and stick him at 10 because the only thing that matters is the pack dominance...

On current form (both for club and country) Ford offers no real running threat, average out of hand kicking, doesn't kick for goal or touch for England and is a massive defensive liability. How the f*** can he be the best option for England? Continuity? In case you hadn't realised we have lost 5 games on the bounce, I think continuity might not be what we need at the moment.

Not saying he's the best option, just that saying we need to look at changing our 10 as a way to fix problems that don't originate with the 10 is daft. I wouldn't call the Wasps pack "weak", Finn Russell has his moments but has also fallen to pieces, Smith is unlikely to be looked at by Jones due to his age and I'd hardly say he has controlled the games, Patchell has looked good but again has struggled to control games and fallen to pieces on various occasions.

If we get a solid pack and ford continue to underperform then I'd be up for trying others. Changing him when our 9 gives extremely slow ball and the pack as a whole are completely failing both in clearing out and in presenting credible running threats then I think changing the 10 is a bit of a pointless exercise.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just because the only change Eddie made is at 10 doesn't mean everyone on here thinks the only issue is at 10.
In an ideal world of course we'd improve the pack, no one on here is saying that we shouldn't. It's like you're annoyed at EJ so arguing with people on here that don't agree with him.

10 is a potential issue so I'm glad we're looking at another option. I've already said I'm really annoyed at the pack make up. I don't think switching out ford for cipriani will suddenly turn us into world beaters. I do, however, think Cips plays better behind a beaten pack than Ford does.

We definitely have bigger problems than 10 but doesn't mean people can't be happy at Danny starting - EJ is coach, we have to be happy with small victories.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Will all become academic when someone nuts Cips in today's pre dinner MMA bonding session.

See Cips had dated that Love Island contestant who died. Only a couple of months a while back, but even so that kind of thing can play on a mind.

 

[SomeOke]

Bok front row looks a bit iffy, Malherbe isn't fit yet not that I really rate him, Chilliboy can't scrum and Beast barely lasts 50min. If the scrum is under pressure then Elton is going to struggle, would have like Rassie to give Du Preez a go at 10. Glad Am is out, I seriously don't rate him, he is a CC/SR player at best much like Bobo. I see guys mentioning Mapimpi, while he's a prolific try scorer his defense is even more suspect than Nkosi's.

Malherbes an OK scrummager probably more reliable than Thomas du Toit who has been great but is barely a year into his loosehead -> tighthead conversion, and still very young for a prop. With Louw being rested, and Coenie out our options are a little limited. Did I miss a Trevor Nyakane injury?

It's been talked to death but Nkosi and Dyantyi can both tackle, it's structural defense they don't manage well, hopefully a fixable issue.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Let's face it if Te'o or Manu where fit Faz will be at 10 IMO.


Surprised some people think Curry hasn't done well at 7.
Him and May have been the two standouts IMO.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Considering he is only 19 and the rest of the pack has been well and truly beaten, I think Curry has done very well. I'm guessing people think he hasn't do well considering how well Kolisi and Vermulean have played but it's unfair to directly compare them.

 

[Scotty]

Really hoping our back row ends the game as
Simmonds curry wilson

Hughes isnt fit enough for 80 and robshaw is out of form and might not be there if shields wernt ill. I like that back row against a tiring defence. Alot of pace.


Funny how the team that finished 10th(quins) has 4 players in the starting 15 where as the chiefs (who finished 1st place and lost the final) have 1 player in the starting 15. And has 5 on the bench hepburn/hill and simmonds are there through injuries to mako(not injured but not there), iseikwe and billy.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Let's face it if Te'o or Manu where fit Faz will be at 10 IMO.


Surprised some people think Curry hasn't done well at 7.
Him and May have been the two standouts IMO.

Agreed, although Curry's more a case of having exceeded age / experience based expectations rather than outright outstanding international. May's right back to where he was pre injury and quite possibly better.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Funny how the team that finished 10th(quins) has 4 players in the starting 15.

Wouldn't be my choice of word.....

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Wouldn't be my choice of word.....

We're just that good. Ur all just jealous

 

[BenJeffrey]

Jonny Hill, lineout specialist or will he add something when coming on? Not seen much of him.

Excited for such a strong Exeter contingent to come on, hoping all that time playing together helps later in the game where we've been falling off.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Agreed, although Curry's more a case of having exceeded age / experience based expectations rather than outright outstanding international. May's right back to where he was pre injury and quite possibly better.

This is easily the best May's looked.

 

[higgik]

Let's face it if Te'o or Manu where fit Faz will be at 10 IMO.


Surprised some people think Curry hasn't done well at 7.
Him and May have been the two standouts IMO.

Definitely go with Te'o or Manu at 12 with Loz or Slade at 13 and Faz or Cips at 10 depending on style of the defence faced.
May has really improved on tour even from end of season, as he is looking for more work now and trying to run good support lines.

It is true that the pack is not doing it atm, not strong enough at set piece, not good enough at clearing out and not fast enough around the loose.
Youngs not consistent enough nor Car. Think Spencer could be the answer to SH.

 

[Jimbo]

Then A] You didn't make your point very well
And B] The situation is still the same as Ford dealt with

When I suggested that Ford would probably play better with a real 7 p, a real IC, and preferably a competent SH I was told that if he needs a team built around him to be effective then he isn't worth it (because, of course, Ford is the only FH in the world whomwould do better in that situation). Now Cips is given the samempack andnthe same backs as Ford, and he's being set up to fail and you can't possibly judge him accurately by this.

Well what ever happens, Cips will struggle to do much worse....

 

[Jimbo]

I think we will end up going round in circles on this, but to summarise for me: You can't be the best team in the world when the only thing your 10 is bringing to the party (based on current form) is a great front-foot passing game. If he finds his career best form running and kicking out of hand, then I would overlook the issues his size present defensively and at the breakdown. Until then, give someone else a shot. Continuity stops being valuable when we stop progressing as a team. We almost look like we are regressing now, so it's time to change.

I couldn't agree more how some can not see the importance of a ten amazes me, if you can put pace on the ball and attack quicker the need for a domainant pack is vastly negated.

If cips sees a gap he will take it not shuffle on **** ball and cause us to be further on the back foot, if he can play like his has been for Wasps I expect to see a renewed energy about England one we haven't seen (with exception to the opening 20), would have liked to see Robson at 9 though he then has the same club continuity that Ford has had this season..