June International Test: South Africa vs. Ireland [1st Test] (11/06/2016)

[TRF_heineken]

Location: DHL Newlands, Cape Town
Time: 17:00 CAT (SA, GMT+2)​

TEAMS

South Africa: 15. Willie Le Roux, 14. JP Pietersen, 13. Lionell Mapoe, 12. Damien De Allende, 11. Lwazi Mvovo, 10. Pat Lambie, 9. Faf De Klerk, 8. Duane Vermeulen, 7. Siya Kolisi, 6. Francois Louw, 5. Lood de Jager, 4. Eben Etzebeth, 3. Frans Malherbe, 2. Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1. Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16. Bongi Mbonambi 17. Trevor Nyakane 18. Julian Redelinghuys 19. Pieter-Steph du Toit 20. Warren Whiteley 21. Rudy Paige 22. Elton Jantjies 23. Jesse Kriel

Ireland: 15. J Payne, 14. A Trimble, 13. R Henshaw, 12. L Marshall, 11. K Earls, 10. P Jackson, 9. C Murray, 8. J Heaslip, 7. J Murphy, 6. CJ Stander, 5. D Toner, 4. I Henderson, 3. M Ross, 2. R Best, 1. J Mcgrath

Substitutes: 16. S Cronin, 17. F Bealham, 18. T Furlong, 19. U Delane, 20. R Ruddock, 21. K Marmion, 22. I Madigan, 23. C Gilroy

 

[WaterboySA]

What's the chance of Toetie surprising us with Morne Steyn at 10?:lol:

 

[TRF_heineken]

What's the chance of Toetie surprising us with Morne Steyn at 10?:lol:

Zero...

But we might see Elton at 10 and maybe Lambie or JPP at centre as Jan Serfontein has been sent back to Pretoria for a scan on his wrist.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Zero...

But we might see Elton at 10 and maybe Lambie or JPP at centre as Jan Serfontein has been sent back to Pretoria for a scan on his wrist.

Surely De Allande and Kriel are bolted on as the centres now.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Surely De Allande and Kriel are bolted on as the centres now.

I think De Allende and Mapoe will be the first choice for 12 and 13 now.

But De Allende was struggling with form in SR and Mapoe has had a ****le so there is a possibility of them not being selected. Kriel is the next best choice at 13.

 

[WaterboySA]

Kriel is the current 13. I think Mapoe can run at 12. De Allende did not look very good in SR, I would bench him. If JPP came in, he would also run at 13, so Mapoe would have to move anyways. I don't believe in running a 10 at inside centre, don't want Lambie to get hurt again. I think he should be first choice 10 ahead of Elton.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Kriel is the current 13. I think Mapoe can run at 12. De Allende did not look very good in SR, I would bench him. If JPP came in, he would also run at 13, so Mapoe would have to move anyways. I don't believe in running a 10 at inside centre, don't want Lambie to get hurt again. I think he should be first choice 10 ahead of Elton.

Mapoe is the in-form 13. He's in better form than Kriel at this moment (especially if you look at the last SR game when they played against each other). I wouldn't move him to 12, he's not a distributor, and runs off 12 better, which makes him so dangerous.

Everything is just speculation at this moment, so let's wait and see who AC picks.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I wouldn't mind either Lambie or Jantjies at 10. I think Toetie will take the conservative route and have Lambie at 10 though seeing as Jantjies has that injury cloud over him and TBH Lambie has been in as superb form or even better than Jantjies has been up till injury.

Centers are up in the air. De Allende has been very much off form, Serfontein at 12 looks like he will get an op. I don't know if I trust De Allende yet. I feel he needs at least 2 decent games at SR level before being given a test start. Venter has been in great form. Mapoe has been the form SA center at 13 and I can't see him not starting. Kriel is also there. We see any of these 12/13 combinations; De Allende/Kriel, De Allende/Mapoe, Mapoe/Kriel. I doubt JPP will see play anywhere other than at 14 what with Mapoe in form. I certainly hope Mapoe will be fit. IMO the form SA center.

At 12 our options are suddenly ridiculous. De Allende has to seriously pull up his socks. Beyond Serfontein and Frans Steyn the likes of Francois Venter, Andre Esterhuizen and Rohan Janse van Rensburg have been playing superb rugby not to mention Burger Odendaal and Harold Verster when not injured.
@TRF_heineken, we'll probably only see line-ups on Wednesday at the earliest. Surely you can't expect us not to speculate!!?!

 

[TRF_heineken]

I wouldn't mind either Lambie or Jantjies at 10. I think Toetie will take the conservative route and have Lambie at 10 though seeing as Jantjies has that injury cloud over him and TBH Lambie has been in as superb form or even better than Jantjies has been up till injury.

Centers are up in the air. De Allende has been very much off form, Serfontein at 12 looks like he will get an op. I don't know if I trust De Allende yet. I feel he needs at least 2 decent games at SR level before being given a test start. Venter has been in great form. Mapoe has been the form SA center at 13 and I can't see him not starting. Kriel is also there. We see any of these 12/13 combinations; De Allende/Kriel, De Allende/Mapoe, Mapoe/Kriel. I doubt JPP will see play anywhere other than at 14 what with Mapoe in form. I certainly hope Mapoe will be fit. IMO the form SA center.

At 12 our options are suddenly ridiculous. De Allende has to seriously pull up his socks. Beyond Serfontein and Frans Steyn the likes of Francois Venter, Andre Esterhuizen and Rohan Janse van Rensburg have been playing superb rugby not to mention Burger Odendaal and Harold Verster when not injured.
@TRF_heineken, we'll probably only see line-ups on Wednesday at the earliest. Surely you can't expect us not to speculate!!?!

Haha, I hate speculation! People get their hopes up and then when the team is announced they are angry that the team doesn't look like they wanted it to look.

I merely mentioned the JPP and Lambie at centre due to the reports on Sport24 (which is also probably speculation).

One good thing was that all 3 the foreign based players joined the squad yesterday, So we could see combo of Flouw, Kriel and Vermeulen on the field.

 

[unrated]

People get their hopes up and then when the team is announced they are angry that the team doesn't look like they wanted it to look.
.

This is true. I do get angry when they dont pick the team i choose which is actually silly because im not the coach. The thing is that even if they pick the best player in every position but two of the positions out of fifteen is a player that you feel might not be the best player in his position then that can enrage a lot of people. We are supposed to pick the best 15 not the best 12 with some players there for other reasons. What im still trying to grasp is the unclear policy on foreign based players. Are we going to pick them if they are good enough? Are we just going to pick them if its a position we are short of or are the three foreign based players just here because Coetzee wants to start his first series with some players that he is familiar with.

On another note. Looking forward to the weekend games. A new era for the springboks and hopefully they impress us.
Expecting wins for South Africa , Australia , New Zealand , Argentina, Samoa , Fiji

Game of the weekend. That ***le will probably go to England vs Australia

 

[TRF_heineken]

This is true. I do get angry when they dont pick the team i choose which is actually silly because im not the coach. The thing is that even if they pick the best player in every position but two of the positions out of fifteen is a player that you feel might not be the best player in his position then that can enrage a lot of people. We are supposed to pick the best 15 not the best 12 with some players there for other reasons. What im still trying to grasp is the unclear policy on foreign based players. Are we going to pick them if they are good enough? Are we just going to pick them if its a position we are short of or are the three foreign based players just here because Coetzee wants to start his first series with some players that he is familiar with.

On another note. Looking forward to the weekend games. A new era for the springboks and hopefully they impress us.
Expecting wins for South Africa , Australia , New Zealand , Argentina, Samoa , Fiji

Game of the weekend. That ***le will probably go to England vs Australia

This article might help you with regard to overseas based players:
http://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/160606/Future_of_overseas_Boks_being_decided

I already know that I'm not going to be 100% happy with whatever team is going to be picked, mainly because I know that the reserve hooker is either going to be Mbonambi or Ntubeni, who IMHO aren't the best we've got in that vital position.

 

[Diomedes]

Sexton out is a massive blow to Ireland's chances - Paddy Jackson will start in his place.

The real question is who start at fullback with Kearney gone?

Jared Payne has been playing all his club rugby at FB and has been excellent there; many believe FB to be his best position and that he should be our FB. Joe Schmidt, unfortunately, is not one of these people - he regards Payne as being instrumental to our midfield denfensive system. I'm doubtful we'll see him anywhere outside of the 13 jersey, which I think is a shame.

Robbie Henshaw is a nailed on starter who also has experience at fullback. We have other options at 12 in Olding and Marshall so this could be an interesting possibility.

Tiernan O'Halloran, fullback for Pro12 champions Connacht has been called into the squad following Kearney's injury. He's in very good form, and some would say he should simply slot into the starting 23. However his lack of test level experience won't help his chances with Schmidt.

Matt Healy and Craig Gilroy are primarily wingers but can play FB too. Both speedsters with an eye for the try line (top 2 scorers in the Pro12). If selected, either would add some additional speed and attacking finesse to our backline. Healy's inexperience and possible questions surrounding Gilroy's defensive solidity could make either starting at the rear unlikely.

Earls, Olding and Madigan all can play FB too...in short, there's a lot of options! We'll have to wait and see

 

[unrated]

This article might help you with regard to overseas based players:
http://www.supersport.com/rugby/springboks/news/160606/Future_of_overseas_Boks_being_decided

Thanks it does make it a bit clearer.
"In its initial raw form, the plan worked around an incremental formula building up to the next World Cup in Japan in 2019. Overseas-based players with something like 25 caps would be eligible for the Boks this year, next year a player would have had to play 35 times for his country, and then 45 the following season".
If this source is reliable regarding the overseas players then i can understand Johan Goosens exclusion. That would mean AC left out Bismarck because he felt the hookers he chose was better.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thanks it does make it a bit clearer.
"In its initial raw form, the plan worked around an incremental formula building up to the next World Cup in Japan in 2019. Overseas-based players with something like 25 caps would be eligible for the Boks this year, next year a player would have had to play 35 times for his country, and then 45 the following season".
If this source is reliable regarding the overseas players then i can understand Johan Goosens exclusion. That would mean AC left out Bismarck because he felt the hookers he chose was better.

Yeah, but the model isn't finalized yet, and rightly so, as I think a call should only be made after AC and his squad has had a few matches behind them. 9 uncapped players are in the squad for this series, and it begs the question that we always see in the first year of a new coach, will the same squad be selected for the more demanding Rugby Championship, which has a higher value than the incoming series.

My guess is that a guy like Bismarck for example, will be too important to just throw away completely for the Boks. So rather use this Irish series as a foundation to work from.

Back to the match at hand, as this is after all the match thread, I see that PS Du Toit is still with the team, and could still play this weekend.

 

[SomeOke]

I'll think we'll see de Allende and Mapoe at 12 and 13, DdA has certainly been off form but his last two games have been better. He's still beaten 17 defenders in the few games he's played which shows his quality, DdA and Mapoe on form would be an absolutely scintillating centre pairing. Serf has certainly been better this season, but his injury means that DdA is the only option really - within our squad and without weird positional changes.

Other than that it should be pretty standard. Beast, Strauss, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Lood/Pstd (Injury), Flouw, Vermulen, Kriel/Kolisi (depending on if quota plays a role), Faf/Paige (again depending on quota), Lambie/Elton (depending on Elton's fitness), DdA, Mapoe, Mvovo, JPP/Combrink (quota?), and Willie le Roux.

Even a worst case team with all the injuries playing a role and quota being a big factor, we will still be a strong team IMO.

Edit: Kriel could start at 13 but I think it's highly unlikely we'll see him start ahead of Mapoe, purely because Mapoe is both the better player and the quota option Kriel would be a nice 23 anyway, and honestly Mapoe should have been in the team last year.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'll think we'll see de Allende and Mapoe at 12 and 13, DdA has certainly been off form but his last two games have been better. He's still beaten 17 defenders in the few games he's played which shows his quality, DdA and Mapoe on form would be an absolutely scintillating centre pairing. Serf has certainly been better this season, but his injury means that DdA is the only option really - within our squad and without weird positional changes.

Other than that it should be pretty standard. Beast, Strauss, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Lood/Pstd (Injury), Flouw, Vermulen, Kriel/Kolisi (depending on if quota plays a role), Faf/Paige (again depending on quota), Lambie/Elton (depending on Elton's fitness), DdA, Mapoe, Mvovo, JPP/Combrink (quota?), and Willie le Roux.

Even a worst case team with all the injuries playing a role and quota being a big factor, we will still be a strong team IMO.

Edit: Kriel could start at 13 but I think it's highly unlikely we'll see him start ahead of Mapoe, purely because Mapoe is both the better player and the quota option Kriel would be a nice 23 anyway, and honestly Mapoe should have been in the team last year.

That's a nice summary of the selection situation we are in given the squad.

The 1st player who's name I'd have down on the teamsheet if I were coach is Faf de Klerk. Simply because of the drop off in quality from there.

 

[TRF_heineken]

That's a nice summary of the selection situation we are in given the squad.

The 1st player who's name I'd have down on the teamsheet if I were coach is Faf de Klerk. Simply because of the drop off in quality from there.

I agree with you on Faf. He must start.

 

[WaterboySA]

I agree with you on Faf. He must start.

I agree.

Heineken, you're no fun when sukkel'd with......

Jesse don't have to be in. I admit Mapoe is on form, I'm just not sure DE Alende's the answer for 12.

What ever team Toetie chooses, I can't wait for the game. In the world cup I said my 2nd team is Ireland, have been for YEARS. I just wish BOD still played, I've never seen him play live.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Sexton out is a massive blow to Ireland's chances - Paddy Jackson will start in his place.

The real question is who start at fullback with Kearney gone?

Jared Payne has been playing all his club rugby at FB and has been excellent there; many believe FB to be his best position and that he should be our FB. Joe Schmidt, unfortunately, is not one of these people - he regards Payne as being instrumental to our midfield denfensive system. I'm doubtful we'll see him anywhere outside of the 13 jersey, which I think is a shame.

Robbie Henshaw is a nailed on starter who also has experience at fullback. We have other options at 12 in Olding and Marshall so this could be an interesting possibility.

Tiernan O'Halloran, fullback for Pro12 champions Connacht has been called into the squad following Kearney's injury. He's in very good form, and some would say he should simply slot into the starting 23. However his lack of test level experience won't help his chances with Schmidt.

Matt Healy and Craig Gilroy are primarily wingers but can play FB too. Both speedsters with an eye for the try line (top 2 scorers in the Pro12). If selected, either would add some additional speed and attacking finesse to our backline. Healy's inexperience and possible questions surrounding Gilroy's defensive solidity could make either starting at the rear unlikely.

Earls, Olding and Madigan all can play FB too...in short, there's a lot of options! We'll have to wait and see

I'd put money on Olding, only one to play there under Joe before. I'll be delighted too because I want him to establish himself at 15 for us.

 

[Peat]

*closes eyes* Uhm. Please not. That would be... courageous. In the Yes Minister sense of the decision.