June International Test: Australia vs. England [3rd Test] (25/06/2016)

[Vieux Talonneur]

Well done England!! But still very much a work in progress.

Our pack is heading in the right direction with healthy competition for most shirts. Very excited to see how Genge and Underhill develop over the next year or so. Back up to Cole is my main concern, hopefully Brookes will get back to his best.

However our backs are a big cause for concern. Unusually Australia didn't play smart rugby, but even so at times it was men against boys in the back line. We largely lacked line breaking ability, whether through power or guile. As a starter Jones must be praying that Manu can get and stay fit, but there's more to it than that.

 

[Groundhog]

Congrats England. Just remember in your happiest moments in life that it's only temporary. Every peak is only the very beginning of the end, and life is worthless

 

[ThebigARena]

Watched the match..wow what a game of rugby ! Congrats to england 3-0 , both teams played they hearts out and fair play to england with the series in the bag they dug deep and got the win can't ask anymore , really wish they were playing NZ in the autumn because that would be some match one that I can't call 1 v 2.

 

[Tony Manx]

Immense work to be done after superb and ugly unexpected series whitewash.

Brown has shown nothing this season to justify progressing with him after this match that again shows his loss of speed! Nowell was found out badly in defence and unless this changes he must be replaced but by whom?!!

I say replaced as England must progress to be anywhere near the AB's next year. They will rip through him as if he was not there.

The only people I feel are going to be first pick in the backs are Ford, Farrell and Watson (even if we do not know where he will play!).

Everyone else needs intensive coaching or replacing!

I was not impressed with Clifford or Henderson - who got the crook after only 30 minutes so EJ was not that impressed either!! Maybe they need more time but pitching them in against lesser teams when they cannot cope with Australia might prove nothing!!

Great, great performance but the true extent of that will only be seen when the hapless Aussies meet the AB's!

I thought Owens was very lax his lack of many decisions but the game flowed and he did not affect the result.....something has to be done about the flopping at the rucks and taking out men on the periphery!

 

[Every Time Ref]

Well done England!! But still very much a work in progress.

Our pack is heading in the right direction with healthy competition for most shirts. Very excited to see how Genge and Underhill develop over the next year or so. Back up to Cole is my main concern, hopefully Brookes will get back to his best.

However our backs are a big cause for concern. Unusually Australia didn't play smart rugby, but even so at times it was men against boys in the back line. We largely lacked line breaking ability, whether through power or guile. As a starter Jones must be praying that Manu can get and stay fit, but there's more to it than that.

Tried to stay away from TRF, was wary of spending the afternoon inevitably talking about England's shortcomings instead of just enjoying the moment!

But **** it, I'm English.

As you say, backs is the main thing. I still think Ford-Farrell is no more than a very effective stopgap, I'm comfortable with it for now the old headache of who to play at IC is still there. In the backline in general we need some power, especially at IC. Tuilagi is constantly injured and hasn't played much at 12; Te'o I have never seen play rugby so couldn't comment; Burrell looks to have signed his own death warrant in the first test. We could do with power on one wing as well IMO; Roko's shot has probably gone, Yarde is obviously in EJ's thoughts. At the same time, wide defence has been woeful, that's even more of a worry. Whatever selection changes happen in the backs we cannot afford to pick anyone worse in defence than whoever they replace.

Having said all that, I trust in Eddie. This is a fantastic base to build from, he certainly doesn't think the job is done and will continue to push his players for improvement. I think he's been savvy in realising you can't change everything at once and has been focus ding his efforts in key areas while making do in others. He also has shown a real ability to bring the best out of individual players.

In summary, stuff to work on but very happy (general)/absolutely ecstatic (today) about progress so far.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Immense work to be done after superb and ugly unexpected series whitewash.

Brown has shown nothing this season to justify progressing with him after this match that again shows his loss of speed! Nowell was found out badly in defence and unless this changes he must be replaced but by whom?!!

I say replaced as England must progress to be anywhere near the AB's next year. They will rip through him as if he was not there.

The only people I feel are going to be first pick in the backs are Ford, Farrell and Watson (even if we do not know where he will play!).

Everyone else needs intensive coaching or replacing!

I was not impressed with Clifford or Henderson - who got the crook after only 30 minutes so EJ was not that impressed either!! Maybe they need more time but pitching them in against lesser teams when they cannot cope with Australia might prove nothing!!

Great, great performance but the true extent of that will only be seen when the hapless Aussies meet the AB's!

I thought Owens was very lax his lack of many decisions but the game flowed and he did not affect the result.....something has to be done about the flopping at the rucks and taking out men on the periphery!

As was discussed earlier, Nowell's poor defence seems like it can be attributed much more to his concussion than to being a poor defender. Before this game he was England's best back 3 player, maybe best outside back. I can't see it being coincidence that the game where he was at his worst was the one in which he was coming back from concussion. It was poor player management by Jones and I think it can be agreed across the bored that concussion protocol needs reviewing. And he still put in a decent shift, his steal from Folau was heroic and he made the 2nd most metres in the game.

I would also say that JJ is another player bolted onto the back line. His defence in the 13 channel is massively underrated, he's superb there, and he's pretty handy in attack too.

I agree that Harrison was unimpressive, so far in international rugby he's looked out of his depth. He is only 23 though, he'll only improve and I'm sure his time will come. In the Premiership he's maybe been the best back rower that's in the EPS. Clifford needs to sort himself out. He breaks the line every now and again, but other than that he's a waste of a shirt. Useless in defence and at the break down.

 

[GoTheNaki]

While I'd hesitate to say Farrell is world class, at least we know he'll do at 12 against good sides.

Whether or not England will challenge New Zealand with him at 12 remains to be seen, but since we don't play them for a while we've got 18 months to look for an actual 12.

I don't think you should fix something that hasn't been broken, so far. Another 18 months to find out if both the All Blacks and England have what it takes... That's a seriously long time.

Is there another fullback that you guys have somewhere? Looming in the background? I just... When commentators, and fans, or whoever, suggest that Brown is "world class"... My brain just goes "?????". New Zealand literally has at least 3 or 4 guys that are better at that position.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I don't think you should fix something that hasn't been broken, so far. Another 18 months to find out if both the All Blacks and England have what it takes... That's a seriously long time.

Is there another fullback that you guys have somewhere? Looming in the background? I just... When commentators, and fans, or whoever, suggest that Brown is "world class"... My brain just goes "?????". New Zealand literally has at least 3 or 4 guys that are better at that position.

After this series, not even the most die hard England or Quins fan will be calling Brown world class. We do have better options at fullback based on form, but they've either never been capped there for England (Watson, Nowell), have been capped there before but never perform at international level (Goode) or haven't been capped at all (Haley). So in short, we have no internationally tested FBs other than Brown, and no ones been willing to make the leap to a new 1. That said, I can't imagine he has much time left in an England shirt.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I don't think you should fix something that hasn't been broken, so far. Another 18 months to find out if both the All Blacks and England have what it takes... That's a seriously long time.

Is there another fullback that you guys have somewhere? Looming in the background? I just... When commentators, and fans, or whoever, suggest that Brown is "world class"... My brain just goes "?????". New Zealand literally has at least 3 or 4 guys that are better at that position.

Disagree that you shouldn't fix something if it ain't broke. If you have something that's fine but limited, you still have to be keeping an eye out for changes which might be really good. That's how good teams become world beaters, never satisfied with "OK".

Agree on Brown. He has been World Class, he's shot now. We have options to replace him, but no one stand out candidate.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Disagree that you shouldn't fix something if it ain't broke. If you have something that's fine but limited, you still have to be keeping an eye out for changes which might be really good. That's how good teams become world beaters, never satisfied with "OK".

Agree on Brown. He has been World Class, he's shot now. We have options to replace him, but no one stand out candidate.

Yeah, of course you replace people if there is someone better.. But how often does someone like that come around and just smash through the barrier...

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Disagree that you shouldn't fix something if it ain't broke. If you have something that's fine but limited, you still have to be keeping an eye out for changes which might be really good. That's how good teams become world beaters, never satisfied with "OK".

Agree on Brown. He has been World Class, he's shot now. We have options to replace him, but no one stand out candidate.

The way I see the Ford-Faz situation is that to play 1 you need the other. If you have Ford 10 then you have a play maker, but no goal kicker. If you have Faz at 10 you have maybe the best goal kicker in the world, but no play maker. As long as you play 1 you need the other. It will be interesting to see how Slade does at 10 this season for Chiefs, because he has the potential to be the right combination of Ford and Faz, which opens up the 12 shirt for Manu/T'o/Mallinder etc.

But for now, I'm more than happy with a Ford-Faz combo. They've taken us to a Grand Slam and our first series win in Oz. The combo isn't exciting, but it works, and suits the England game plan excellently. We aren't going to become 1st in the world by trying to fit the mould of the All Blacks, we can't beat them at their own game. So let's keep Ford-Faz and beat them with our own.

 

[GoTheNaki]

The way I see the Ford-Faz situation is that to play 1 you need the other. If you have Ford 10 then you have a play maker, but no goal kicker. If you have Faz at 10 you have maybe the best goal kicker in the world, but no play maker. As long as you play 1 you need the other. It will be interesting to see how Slade does at 10 this season for Chiefs, because he has the potential to be the right combination of Ford and Faz, which opens up the 12 shirt for Manu/T'o/Mallinder etc.

But for now, I'm more than happy with a Ford-Faz combo. They've taken us to a Grand Slam and our first series win in Oz. The combo isn't exciting, but it works, and suits the England game plan excellently. We aren't going to become 1st in the world by trying to fit the mould of the All Blacks, we can't beat them at their own game. So let's keep Ford-Faz and beat them with our own.

Don't you poms know how to have play-makers that are kickers? It's odd that you have such a problem when... Well... If you are 10 here in NZ, you are a play-maker from when you are in school... And typically, it's either you, your 12, or fullback that kick. But essentially, some 10 will replace you if they can kick and be a play-maker and you cannot.

 

[TobesHodges]

Tbh I've always thought Harrison is just a bit to small, and if your a small backrower and don't play like Hooper does then your probably not going to make the cut.. He needs to put on stone and a half or two.. Agree that player of the Series was Faz man and agree with Wiggle the other day, when he said with his defence and leadership and renewed attack he's probably now made him up there with England's most important players..

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Don't you poms know how to have play-makers that are kickers? It's odd that you have such a problem when... Well... If you are 10 here in NZ, you are a play-maker from when you are in school... And typically, it's either you, your 12, or fullback that kick. But essentially, some 10 will replace you if they can kick and be a play-maker and you cannot.

Have you not noticed that 2 of the 3 10s in your squad can't kick for s***. And the 3rd is questionable. Your 10s have the same issue as Ford does, good play makers but can't perform the technical skills needed from a fly half. With Crudes or Barrett at 10, if a team learns how to defend against you, you're f***ed because you can't get points from the tee. That's why I'm saying it's good for us to have 1 player as a play maker and 1 to kick. We have 2 ways of scoring.

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Tbh I've always thought Harrison is just a bit to small, and if your a small backrower and don't play like Hooper does then your probably not going to make the cut.. He needs to put on stone and a half or two.. Agree that player of the Series was Faz man and agree with Wiggle the other day, when he said with his defence and leadership and renewed attack he's probably now made him up there with England's most important players..

He's 106kg. I wouldn't have thought that he's lacking too much size-wise, but agree that it probably wouldn't hurt to grow to 110. I've never thought that a lack of size has stunted him as a player. In my eyes, his aggression and power more than makes up for it.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with that, RE: Harrison... he isn't too small.

It might help him to be closer to 110kg if it doesn't hurt any other part of his game, but he's more than physical enough as it is.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As was discussed earlier, Nowell's poor defence seems like it can be attributed much more to his concussion than to being a poor defender. Before this game he was England's best back 3 player, maybe best outside back. I can't see it being coincidence that the game where he was at his worst was the one in which he was coming back from concussion. It was poor player management by Jones and I think it can be agreed across the bored that concussion protocol needs reviewing. And he still put in a decent shift, his steal from Folau was heroic and he made the 2nd most metres in the game.

How exactly do you reason that the poor aspects of Nowell's game were down to concussion?

Are you saying that he wasn't fit to take the pitch in the first place? If so, that's a failure of duty of care, but concussion is now such a hot topic that I can't see that he'd have been risked if there was any doubt, especially with the series done. Only those close to the situation will know that.

My concern would have been far more around what would have happened if he'd taken a blow for a second week in succession rather than directly suffering after effects from the week before.

Whether he should have picked is one question. But having been selected I simply think that he had a mixed day at the office which highlighted the extra power and pace that the Aussies had. Blaming it on the concussion just feels like an excuse.

 

[Which Tyler]

Don't you poms know how to have play-makers that are kickers?

Yes, George Ford - it's just that Toby doesn't rate him.
He's an 80% kicker who had an absolute shocker with the boot a few weeks ago against Wales; but is still an 80% kicker over the last 3 years.
He also play-makes, runs with the ball, kicks from hand and defends; but some people just don't like / rate him, so dismiss various aspects of his play (usually because he's not called, Slade, Cipriani, Farrell... or Wilkinson)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I agree with that, RE: Harrison... he isn't too small.

It might help him to be closer to 110kg if it doesn't hurt any other part of his game, but he's more than physical enough as it is.

Harrison has plenty of potential just lacks experience this has been his first season of consistent rugby, Hopefully with saints signing Picamoles he will be focus at 7 next season. (and hopefully Mallinder sticks by him and not brings in Clark).

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

How exactly do you reason that the poor aspects of Nowell's game were down to concussion?

Are you saying that he wasn't fit to take the pitch in the first place? If so, that's a failure of duty of care, but concussion is now such a hot topic that I can't see that he'd have been risked if there was any doubt, especially with the series done. Only those close to the situation will know that.

My concern would have been far more around what would have happened if he'd taken a blow for a second week in succession rather than directly suffering after effects from the week before.

Whether he should have picked is one question. But having been selected I simply think that he had a mixed day at the office which highlighted the extra power and pace that the Aussies had. Blaming it on the concussion just feels like an excuse.

Yes, I'm 100% saying he shouldn't have been on the pitch. Yarde has shown he's a more than capable replacement for Nowell, so there was 0 reason to risk Nowell's health when he'd had a concussion the previous week. There's no excuse for that, in my eyes the fact that any player can be played a week after being concussed is both terrifying and also embarrassing for concussion protocols, and the fact that Jones still went through with playing him when he had ample cover is a failure on his behalf. Even if the effects of concussion weren't still effecting Nowell or his decision making, the psychological worry of hitting his head again is bound to mean he isn't going to want to go into tackles 100%. Which I think is fair enough. A player's safety, especially when it's their mental safety, should always come before winning a match, regardless of how important the match is. I think Nowell's poor defence today can be forgiven and frankly I think Jones owes him a apology for playing him, knowing full well he shouldn't have. On top of that, the protocols need reviewing. End of.

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Yes, George Ford - it's just that Toby doesn't rate him.
He's an 80% kicker who had an absolute shocker with the boot a few weeks ago against Wales; but is still an 80% kicker over the last 3 years.
He also play-makes, runs with the ball, kicks from hand and defends; but some people just don't like / rate him, so dismiss various aspects of his play (usually because he's not called, Slade, Cipriani, Farrell... or Wilkinson)

Hang on, I never said I don't like/rate Ford. I think he's the best play maker in the NH at the moment, and is miles ahead of Slade and Cips at this point in time. I just think that it's fair to say that Ford couldn't have hit a lot of the kicks that Faz has this series, which is why we need both.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Australia had a lot of heart and seem well drilled. They just don't seem to have the talent at this precise moment. Good to see a northern hemisphere side win a series but the 6 nations are going to be awfie dull and one sided for the next year or two unless Ireland can have a bit more luck with injuries or France come out of their coma.