Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

You're selective reading has missed where i suggest sarcastically, that that must be the only alternative to the Celtic Unions expelling them. It's quite clear in my post which you so kindly quoted.

I think the comments are quite clear with regard the 6N when people, you included, start to advocate a home & away format for the Celtic Unions. Seeing as i doubt the RFU & FFR would unilaterally pull out of the 6N, then i am only assuming that this suggestion is made with some sort of expulsion of the English & French for some speculated reasoning that has not been established as yet.

That is sarcasm?!?

If sarcasm is supposedly the lowest form of wit... I wonder where does poor sarcasm rate?


My opening post on the point #300 makes no such reference to the Celtic nations playing home and away fixtures amongst themselves. It would obviously involve all 6.

Indeed - post #303 even makes clear that it would include English and French teams.

My whole point is that the status quo change of the HC should have no bearing on the 6N unless there is some sort of toys out of prams scenario by the Celts.

You are reading what you want to read - not what is actually written.

If there is no HEC and the unions want to put the brakes on the PRL/LNR - then expanding the 6N is a relatively easy way for them to take both money and mindshare away from the club chairmen they wish to isolate.

 

[gaston le gaff]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH? This horse is dead, long live the donkeys

 

[St George]

That is sarcasm?!?

If sarcasm is supposedly the lowest form of wit... I wonder where does poor sarcasm rate?


My opening post on the point #300 makes no such reference to the Celtic nations playing home and away fixtures amongst themselves. It would obviously involve all 6.

Indeed - post #303 even makes clear that it would include English and French teams.




You are reading what you want to read - not what is actually written.

If there is no HEC and the unions want to put the brakes on the PRL/LNR - then expanding the 6N is a relatively easy way for them to take both money and mindshare away from the club chairmen they wish to isolate.

I'm sorry i do not measure up to your obvious standards regarding sarcasm, i will try to improve.

And yes, i did read it that the 6N would progress without the Franglais. And thats due to my belief that any talk of changing the current 6N format under the current cloud over Europe, is quite absurd.
The RFU will side with the PRL.
The FFR & Top14 is....well they are French....and so i have no idea how they will go. But IMO the Top14 will not have gone so far out on a limb based on foundations of quicksand.

Nuff said for now from me....Beer-Bars and Go-Go Girls awaiting.

 

[St George]

God you lot still on about this!

No one knows whats going to happen yet, just at rats said earlier. Far too much speculation on these boards alot driven by a bit of anti english feeling.....

Wahey....someone who speaks my language.

Unfortunately Tallshort, in my experience, it goes with the territory on most rugby forums.

 

[j_remos]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH? This horse is dead, long live the donkeys

Now this is the most sensible thing i have seen all day.

 

[Packman]

Things have got a bit "us and them" on this thread. Lets bring it back to the crux, which is that PRL and greedy corporate slimebags who've painted themselves into a corner thanks to they own stupidity.

Lesson one - you can't sell things that don't belong to you.

Lesson two - the whole of the IRB and every union that actually has a pair of balls gets upset when you try to ruin the international game in Scotland and Italy.

Lesson three - Celts have brains, just saying that they'll go under if they don't do as they are told doesn't wash.

I see that PRL have not been in the press today. I can see them in my minds eye looking at each other rather sheepishly realising that its time to come back to the negociation table.

As a proud Englishman and leicester tigers fan all I can say is its about time the accountants butted out and PRL started doing whats good for rugby rather than what's good for their wallets. Don't even try to make out that every English rugby fan is on PRL's side. I'm on rugby's side. The right and wrong's of this issue are pretty cut and dried when you cut away the smoke screens.

 

[Peat]

Just seen on the PR forum that allegedly, the details of the BT deal have leaked, and that if BT don't get a European competition with at least 4 Tier 1 nations sending teams, then PRL get barely any money at all. By barely I mean travelling expenses for Europe and less money than Sky were giving for the Premiership. That is the word and obviously, I do not know if it is true.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Ha!

https://twitter.com/rugbychampionsc

[h=1]Rugby Champions Cup[/h] [h=2]<s>@</s>rugbychampionsc[/h] We demand 180 characters per tweet or we're setting up our own social media

 

[coolbawn]

Rats is right about none of us knowing. It's certainly hard to pick a winner from the lawyers amongst you. The likes of Packman and Amiga500 have their hearts in the right place as far as I'm concerned. I'm betting on Ian Ritchie sorting out something like: continuation of HEC run by ERC; only one Italian and one Scottish place guaranteed; a country still gets extra teams for winning the HEC and Amlin winner; so from En-Fr-Rabo-winners go from 6-6-10-2 to 7-7-8-2; pledge to work together to get much better TV pot next time which might allow Franglais absolute revenues to rise a lot and the others to rise a bit; hard to see McCafferty on ERC board any longer (certainly not as Commercial Chairman as he was !) so probably ditched by English club chairmen soonish; toys quietly put back in prams by nanny; get on with enjoying playing and watching rugby.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Just seen on the PR forum that allegedly, the details of the BT deal have leaked, and that if BT don't get a European competition with at least 4 Tier 1 nations sending teams, then PRL get barely any money at all. By barely I mean travelling expenses for Europe and less money than Sky were giving for the Premiership. That is the word and obviously, I do not know if it is true.

Do the clubs have the ability to join in tournaments not run (or jointly run) by PRL?
For example - could they join the ERC through the RFU and still be in the Premiership?

 

[Peat]

Do the clubs have the ability to join in tournaments not run (or jointly run) by PRL?
For example - could they join the ERC through the RFU and still be in the Premiership?

No idea I'm afraid.

 

[Packman]

Just seen on the PR forum that allegedly, the details of the BT deal have leaked, and that if BT don't get a European competition with at least 4 Tier 1 nations sending teams, then PRL get barely any money at all. By barely I mean travelling expenses for Europe and less money than Sky were giving for the Premiership. That is the word and obviously, I do not know if it is true.

I'm not going to go overboard based on anything that started out on the planet rugby forums, but this is what I've summised for weeks now.

Oh and if you want a laugh then try this!

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8944508,00.html

PRL's world is crumbling all around them and they are in complete denial. if the last pro 12 press released wasn't true then don't you think the clubs would say something??? D'uh!!!

 

[Amiga500]

Just seen on the PR forum that allegedly, the details of the BT deal have leaked, and that if BT don't get a European competition with at least 4 Tier 1 nations sending teams, then PRL get barely any money at all. By barely I mean travelling expenses for Europe and less money than Sky were giving for the Premiership. That is the word and obviously, I do not know if it is true.

To be honest - I'm not sure I believe that.

I know I think McCafferty isn't the brightest - but he can't be that f**king stupid.

 

[smartcooky]

I'm not going to go overboard based on anything that started out on the planet rugby forums, but this is what I've summised for weeks now.

Oh and if you want a laugh then try this!

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8944508,00.html

PRL's world is crumbling all around them and they are in complete denial. if the last pro 12 press released wasn't true then don't you think the clubs would say something??? D'uh!!!

"But Robson is adamant that the clubs themselves are keen to sign up for the new event."

Such a statement is an obvious attempt at divide and conquer, and Robson STILL doesn't get that, at least the Celtic Pro12 teams are not Clubs, and it is not they, but the Unions who will be deciding whether they join or not.

Just seen on the PR forum that allegedly, the details of the BT deal have leaked, and that if BT don't get a European competition with at least 4 Tier 1 nations sending teams, then PRL get barely any money at all. By barely I mean travelling expenses for Europe and less money than Sky were giving for the Premiership. That is the word and obviously, I do not know if it is true.

I have heard this elsewhere too, and that the RFU have seen the contract; those conditions being part of the reason why the RFU is playing its cards very close to its chest.

What I have been hearing is that the BT deal is very much dependent upon the number of different Nations' teams taking part.

Less than four nations and only travel costs for each team are paid
Only four and only 50% of the full contract is paid
Five means 75%
All six are needed for the full 100%.

So, why have the RFU been so quiet about all this? Its because they have seen the details of the BT deal. The other nations would all make more money than they are now, but if the RCC doesn't happen, then PRL will receive no European money at all, leaving them worse off financially than they are now. By signing the deal they have excluded themselves from taking part in any ERC competition, hence it’s all or nothing for them.

The RFU has refused to come out against the clubs. Despite not being in favour of PRL’s actions they now have no choice but to either allow a RCC to take place (or else most of the PRL clubs will be bankrupt in time for the World Cup), or, by staying quiet and letting PRL dig itself into a deeper and deeper hole, an opportunity might arise to seize control of the Aviva Premiership, and its participating clubs.

PRL are are desperate now. Its is clear that NO Pro12 teams will be joining the RCC, and without FFR approval, not even an Anglo-French Super Competition is possible unless it is a rebel one, and in that case, with only two nations involved, there will be no money for PRL Clubs.

 

[Peat]

Interesting. Your source is more comprehensive than what I've seen - the original comment on thescore.ie that started all this had no mention of the sliding scale on costs.

Still taking this with a fairly heavy pinch of salt but I do find this plausible. Yes, it's a reckless contract for PRL to sign, but there's little about this saga that doesn't look reckless from them. They needed a TV partner to leave and maybe these were the only conditions on which they got one. It would have been equally reckless for BT to agree to pay the full whack for a product they didn't definitely have as well.

If this is true, and I were in the EPL's shoes, I would consider a new holding company for the Heineken Cup which accepted the TV deal but still accepted Union control and maintained the distribution of funds by union, as quite the result. The unions are clearly willing to go a long distance not to be sidelined, and I'd have thought that sort of compromise preferable to financial Russian roulette. But I'm not the EPL.

Also, while this leak may not be true, I do find it very difficult to think there there will be no financial repercussions in terms of BT's money if the EPL fails to secure a proper European tournament for them.

 

[erwanseb]

Why would the RFU or FFR pull out of the 6N?

The FFR can mandate the T14 calendar be re-arranged around the expanded 6N.


As for the RFU... what English player is not gonna do everything in their power to get released for international duty with RWC2015 coming up?

All players remain the employees of the clubs, not of the FFR. Multiplying by 2 the number of international fixtures for the sole benefit of the unions using the assets of the clubs (players) is tantamount to spoliation and will never be allowed.

Besides , the French Ministry of Sports is currently at odds with the FFR regarding the new stadium. The French ministry took it very badly that the FFR abandonned the stade de France as it will cost dearly to the state coffer, the income shortfall for the SDF operator is to be compensated by the government as part of the concession contract (although there is a new recently signed concession contract limiting state liability).

In addition clubs owners have been lobbying the ministry of sport for quite a while about the perceived inequality of revenue sharing of the HEC. Clubs owners yield very significant influence over local politicians.

Do you seriously think the government and the ministry of sport will throw away the tax revenues and social contribution from the future competition and will endanger an economic activity representing an aggregate budget of 250 million euros?

Do not bet against the French ministry of sport twisting the arms of the FFR into accepting the new competition, there is far more happening behind the scenes than the eye can see.
The FFR made a serious mistake when Lux was relected in 2011. At the time, based on internal agreement between the LNR and the FFR, 4 of the 5 french votes (cast by FFR) were to be decided by the LNR which was not supportive of Lux. The FFR then took on itself to scrap the agreement and threw its support (5 votes) behind Lux in the name "of the interest of French rugby". This betrayal has never been forgotten nor forgiven, wasting any chance for the ERC to implement the badly needed reforms.

http://www.sport.fr/rugby/erc-jean-pierre-lux-reelu-208927.shtm

In any case, do you seriously think, the LNR followed blindly the PRL without some guarantees at the top decision level. They had more than a year to prepare their coup since they served notice, one year to implement a carefully planned strategy. The official DNACG report was already pointing out the weakness of the H cup revenues (9 fixtures out of 38(29+9), 23% of the total fixtures but less than 10% of the total centralized LNR revenues, and less than 5% of total club revenues).
On aggregate, a top 14 club will get less than 500,000 euros from the H cup, including travel expenses, excluding gate revenues, but will require a significant staff increase to compete. While it remains impossible to know precisely the surplus of players required to compete in Europe, clubs do not currently break even on European competitions.

Why do you think the deadline for the negotiations between the FFR and the LNR to draft the new agreement regarding the availability of international players was set at the end of 2013 ?
Meanwhile, the ERC has just sat on its a** and done nothing.

 

[Amiga500]

- Ha. If you are now relying on politicans to save the rugby champions cup your already desperate.

- Lux... as opposed to Peter Wheeler? The man who is a director of PRL... and undoubtedly aware of, if not negotiating, a deal between PRL and BT prior to PRL's withdrawal from ERC? He was also undoubtedly aware of ERC negotiating a renewal with Sky. The FFR did right by not electing that corrupt bstart.

- If you are going to start massaging numbers, then I am going to pay no further heed to you. 9 fixtures? So a finalist still only gets 5% of club revenues from the HEC? Trying to be too smart for your own good.

 

[smartcooky]

- Ha. If you are now relying on politicans to save the rugby champions cup your already desperate.

- Lux... as opposed to Peter Wheeler? The man who is a director of PRL... and undoubtedly aware of, if not negotiating, a deal between PRL and BT prior to PRL's withdrawal from ERC? He was also undoubtedly aware of ERC negotiating a renewal with Sky. The FFR did right by not electing that corrupt bstart.

- If you are going to start massaging numbers, then I am going to pay no further heed to you. 9 fixtures? So a finalist still only gets 5% of club revenues from the HEC? Trying to be too smart for your own good.

erwanseb has always been good at creatively making numbers say whatever he wants them to say.

* * * * *

I hope that it doesn't come to court, but even if it does, and they (the LNR and the PRL) win the right to start their competition, no court in any land, no matter how powerful they might be, can force other teams to join it. Nor can they force the FFR, the RFU or the iRB to approve the competition. That will place the Rugby Champions Cup as a rebel competition, out in the wilderness, along with any players who play for teams involved in it. Under those circumstances, the iRB are likely to rule any players who play in the rebel competition ineligible to play test rugby. Top players who have ambitions to play test rugby are likely to leave to play for those teams that will give them a chance at selection. The RFU, the FFR and iRB would also not provide any administrative infrastructure; no referees or other match officials, no judiciary set-up etc.

I don't know how viable the LNR Clubs are financially, but most of the PRL Clubs are close to the edge of fiscal collapse. I hear a lot of rhetoric saying how the new deal is about "wiping out the losses in English and French rugby". The club owners saying this might want to look a little more closely at exactly how those losses have come about. They have been accumulating because the business model they use is deeply flawed. Rugby, in both England and France is a minority sport. As far as match attendances go, more people attend second tier "Division 1" Wendyball on any given weekend, than attend the Aviva Premiership. Paying overly high prices for players, having them on inflated pay packets, then having "Sugar Daddy" throwing money at the club when the books won't balance, is not a sustainable business model. This BT deal is not going to do anything more than place a band-aid over the gaping wound, if that.

After spending a couple of years in the wilderness, with no money from the RFU (or FFR - presumably they pay for their France players) and less money than they had under the SkyTV deal (because their BT Sport deal doesn't pay out unless teams from at least four Tier 1 countries are involved) they will come to realise how meaningless their own over-estimate of their self-importance really is.

 

[Feicarsinn]

erwanseb has always been good at creatively making numbers say whatever he wants them to say.

* * * * *

I hope that it doesn't come to court, but even if it does, and they (the LNR and the PRL) win the right to start their competition, no court in any land, no matter how powerful they might be, can force other teams to join it. Nor can they force the FFR, the RFU or the iRB to approve the competition. That will place the Rugby Champions Cup as a rebel competition, out in the wilderness, along with any players who play for teams involved in it. Under those circumstances, the iRB are likely to rule any players who play in the rebel competition ineligible to play test rugby. Top players who have ambitions to play test rugby are likely to leave to play for those teams that will give them a chance at selection. The RFU, the FFR and iRB would also not provide any administrative infrastructure; no referees or other match officials, no judiciary set-up etc.

I don't know how viable the LNR Clubs are financially, but most of the PRL Clubs are close to the edge of fiscal collapse. I hear a lot of rhetoric saying how the new deal is about "wiping out the losses in English and French rugby". The club owners saying this might want to look a little more closely at exactly how those losses have come about. They have been accumulating because the business model they use is deeply flawed. Rugby, in both England and France is a minority sport. As far as match attendances go, more people attend second tier "Division 1" Wendyball on any given weekend, than attend the Aviva Premiership. Paying overly high prices for players, having them on inflated pay packets, then having "Sugar Daddy" throwing money at the club when the books won't balance, is not a sustainable business model. This BT deal is not going to do anything more than place a band-aid over the gaping wound, if that.

After spending a couple of years in the wilderness, with no money from the RFU (or FFR - presumably they pay for their France players) and less money than they had under the SkyTV deal (because their BT Sport deal doesn't pay out unless teams from at least four Tier 1 countries are involved) they will come to realise how meaningless their own over-estimate of their self-importance really is.

Wait, we might get a better shot at a 6 nations ***le out of this?? Stick to your guns PRL, show those chumps who's boss

 

[erwanseb]

- Ha. If you are now relying on politicans to save the rugby champions cup your already desperate.

- Lux... as opposed to Peter Wheeler? The man who is a director of PRL... and undoubtedly aware of, if not negotiating, a deal between PRL and BT prior to PRL's withdrawal from ERC? He was also undoubtedly aware of ERC negotiating a renewal with Sky. The FFR did right by not electing that corrupt bstart.

- If you are going to start massaging numbers, then I am going to pay no further heed to you. 9 fixtures? So a finalist still only gets 5% of club revenues from the HEC? Trying to be too smart for your own good.

Rather than insulting the posters who actually do make some accurate research before posting, you'd better look at the number yourself.

Here are the exact audited numbers for 2013
Total LNR revenues: 80.5 millions euros
TV revenue top 14: 49.5 millions
TV revenues and marketing ERC: 11.3 millions (of 11.3 millions , 8.712 millions is distributed to the Top 14 professional clubs, the rest is for the FFR, tax and operating expenses).
Top 14 play off: 9 millions
FFR: 8.6 millions
Others: 2.1 millions

The total club revenues for both top 14 and pro d2 is 349 234 000 (350 million euros, around 256.545 millions for the top 14).

Now the 8.712 millions represent only 3.3% of the total Top14 revenues but they exclude gate revenues from the HEC. There is no available breakdown/statistics of gate revenues between european and non european games, some games may generate a high premium.
Based on a rough estimate of 21 home HEC fixtures, and supposing a 50% premium on ticket price, you come up at best with 6 millions euros (total gate revenues is 47.867 millions euros for the top 14 clubs), which brings total HEC revenues to 14.7 millions or 5.5% of total club revenues.