Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

They aren't reliant on RFU money though afaik - it won't kill them. If it was that easy they would have done it by now.

Their BT deal is a reduction in monies from Sky if there is no Euro competition.
They do receive quite a few million (distributed) from the RFU.
The PRL herd is only as strong as their weakest buffalo.


I definitely think, if the RFU wanted to, they could take the RFU championship - subsidise it, put it head-to-head with the PRL (who would be standalone with no relegation and no-one to replace busted clubs) and win.

For example, if the RFU can get Wasps' back to the wall the PRL are in trouble [i.e. go bust or accept our buy-out and move from PRL to RFU championship] the PRL league drops to 11. Put Sarries to the wall and the PRL are screwed. Neither are in a good financial position right now.

 

[Amiga500]

Thats it! cannot stand this any longer.

All you can see is the end of your nose. Not an inch beyond.

Tell me, if the PRL got everything they wanted from this today, what do you think would be the result for the rest of Europe over the next 15 years and how long would it be before the PRL would be looking more?

These greedy selfish wreckers are the only reason we have a professional league in England do you not get that?!?!?!?!?

Yes... of course. It would never have happened without them. Pull the other one.

but what they all fail to understand is these people put lots of their own money into clubs so we can enjoy one of the best professional leagues in the world.

I don't dispute many of them have put a lot of money into the clubs. They have also, over the past 15 years, built a structure that is unsustainable and are now looking at one side of the problem rather than both.

Abramovich has pumped millions into Chelsea - does that mean he is good for soccer?

If the over opinionated, over educated anti English brigade on here

You got chips on both shoulders?

I have English rugby playing and coaching friends who are none too happy about all this PRL guff.

While I love to beat England and the English clubs - I also love to have a pint and the craic with them before, during and after the games. You should not assume that anyone who disagrees with the PRL's course of action (and points out the arrogance of McCafferty's attitude) is by default "anti-English".

If you enter the forum with that prejudice, then you are never going to get much from this thread.

And as for this theory that the English rugby players are going to somehow repel against their employers and demand to leave because of some dispute with the rfu then you are obviously either unemployed or in full time education but its doubtful you have a mortgage to pay.

Depends if there is an alternative for them doesn't it.

If the RFU decide to let the championship clubs into the HEC and subsidise them, then the players have an alternative - albeit an alternative probably on reduced wages - but an alternative that gives them a choice.

As you correctly point out - faced with being homeless, no food for the kids etc or sucking up your morals and putting up with it - its not a choice at all.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Oh and you think that would happen? to my mind the only players rebellion in English rugby was against the RFU and they were all threatening not to play internationals. They are pro players and playing contracts are at a premium if the clubs dont employ them who will? The RFU? then who will they play for week in week out?

They might... if the IRB did not sanction the breakaway tournament then it could not be a Rugby Union competition.
How many players are going to want to code-hop to a new sport?

 

[Amiga500]

They are pro players and playing contracts are at a premium if the clubs dont employ them who will? The RFU? then who will they play for week in week out?

You realise that is exactly how the game is structured in South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Scotland and Ireland?

The RFU could decide to employ them and second them to the RFU championship* - and operate a draft pick of sorts.

*I would hope the RFU would have the foresight to actually buy out the clubs, but I'm not sure that would happen.

 

[McTallshort]

Who else would employ them? oh and all the French based players who I guess have also rebelled at this point?

 

[McTallshort]

You realise that is exactly how the game is structured in South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Scotland and Ireland?

The RFU could decide to employ them and second them to the RFU championship* - and operate a draft pick of sorts.

*I would hope the RFU would have the foresight to actually buy out the clubs, but I'm not sure that would happen.

And why would you hope that.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They aren't going to strike about something that hasn't happened yet...

Top players will want the opportunity to play against the likes of the All Blacks, South Africa, New Zealand and Wales.
They will not be able to do that if they are excommunicated by the IRB.

 

[McTallshort]

They aren't going to strike about something that hasn't happened yet...

Top players will want the opportunity to play against the likes of the All Blacks, South Africa, New Zealand and Wales.
They will not be able to do that if they are excommunicated by the IRB.

OK rats, yes really get that but....question still stands: who will employ them on a weekly basis? it has taken 20 years to get the premier league to where it is now are those players just going to play for say Nottingham because the IRB say the RFU cannot play them? oh and has the RFU actually said it would stop players playing for England if they play in the new competition?

 

[Peat]

I am English, not anti-English. My main worry is that English Rugby is pointing an elephant gun at its own feet here. If we were really attending to our own best interests here I would be far more conflicted and ambivalent. Instead, there is a huge number of ways this could go wrong. Yes, I also have issues with the decision from a moral point of view, although this is far from black and white. That is important to me. Most important is the good health of English rugby and PRL is taking huge gambles with that.

edit: As for the subject of players being barred from international rugby and where their ultimate loyalties lie; PRL does currently pay the everyday wages of professional rugby in England, but will struggle to do so (in some cases) without EPS payments and Television rights payments*; the RFU would not be able to match current wages, even working with the Championship, but they could present an alternative and international rugby is very prestigious and profitable for players. There is no obvious winner here and anyone who is sanguine about such a conflict needs their brain checking. The likely outcome here is an argument ruinous to English rugby - it is just one of the gambles PRL are taking with the national game as a whole.


*The PRL clubs dependence on these things does not make them unsustainable, nor is the model unsustainable. Constant drum-banging on how the chairman have created a fantasy world that cannot survive on its own is wide on the mark on a great number of points.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No, the RFU haven't said anything.

The IRB is for all intents and purposes, Rugby Union itself. What they say, goes - unless you break away and form a new code: hence, League.
The World Cup, for example, is their competition - they decide who plays in it or not.

 

[Amiga500]

And why would you hope that.

Just a few reasons off the top of my head.

[1] It would put a stop to the continual PRL power-grab maneuvers. They happen seemingly every 5 years or so. Every time, the RFU concede a bit here, a bit there. Its always only a matter of time till the PRL come back to bite off more. It would mean a more stable game, not just within England, but across the rest of the world too.

[2] It would mean the "clubs" would have a financial backer with the clout and no expectation of short term profit to allow them to really forward plan. For those without, buy ground and build stadia, for those with, upgrade/expand stadia.

[3] No more issues with getting players released for international camps.

[4] Improved player welfare as their gametime would be managed in a similar way to the IRFU/SRU etc.

[5] As the RFU would own the clubs, they could work in tandem with other unions, and put effective wage caps on - which would prevent the game deteriorating into the shambles that soccer has become. What is Bale getting paid a week? North of £300K? Disgusting. Absolutely-f**king-disgusting.

For £300k a week you should be curing cancer, not kicking a bag of wind about a field.

[6] Similar to the above, the clubs would never have to fleece the support to "get ahead of the Jones'". The RFU could mandate ticket pricing to ensure a family won't have to dread forking out for a few match tickets.


Out of interest; what would your counter argument be? Why should the club chairmen be preserved (possibly at all costs!)?

 

[McTallshort]

No, the RFU haven't said anything.

The IRB is for all intents and purposes, Rugby Union itself. What they say, goes - unless you break away and form a new code: hence, League.
The World Cup, for example, is their competition - they decide who plays in it or not.

Ok then the french and English clubs do what they are saying they are going to do and start a new competition. The IRB dont approve this and refuse to sanction this. Do the FFR and RFU then say right no players who stay with their club will play for England or France? Do you honestly think they would sell out out Twickers with players from Jersey and Leeds? Not a chance.

 

[McTallshort]

Just a few reasons off the top of my head.

[1] It would put a stop to the continual PRL power-grab maneuvers. They happen seemingly every 5 years or so. Every time, the RFU concede a bit here, a bit there. Its always only a matter of time till the PRL come back to bite off more. It would mean a more stable game, not just within England, but across the rest of the world too.

[2] It would mean the "clubs" would have a financial backer with the clout and no expectation of short term profit to allow them to really forward plan. For those without, buy ground and build stadia, for those with, upgrade/expand stadia.

[3] No more issues with getting players released for international camps.

[4] Improved player welfare as their gametime would be managed in a similar way to the IRFU/SRU etc.

[5] As the RFU would own the clubs, they could work in tandem with other unions, and put effective wage caps on - which would prevent the game deteriorating into the shambles that soccer has become. What is Bale getting paid a week? North of £300K? Disgusting. Absolutely-f**king-disgusting.

For £300k a week you should be curing cancer, not kicking a bag of wind about a field.

[6] Similar to the above, the clubs would never have to fleece the support to "get ahead of the Jones'". The RFU could mandate ticket pricing to ensure a family won't have to dread forking out for a few match tickets.


Out of interest; what would your counter argument be? Why should the club chairmen be preserved (possibly at all costs!)?

Ok

1.The RFU (most unions for that matter) has a great and massive history at being completely hopeless at managing itself why the hell would they make things more stable thaan they are already?

2. Unions subsidies the club instead of a private owner? no difference apart from the owner will be (and often is) for the club and the union are mostly self serving.

3.What issues do we have in England now?

4.yeah obviously you may now more about that but the big drain on England players in the past is 4 autumn internationals instead of 3 so I dont see how the unions are more pro player welfare.

5. agree with what you say about soccer but we have a salary cap etc and this on the presumption that all unions are great noble organisations and all clubs are owned by rabid bond villian types...my experience its the other way around.

6. Never been fleeced by my club...

 

[smartcooky]

OK rats, yes really get that but....question still stands: who will employ them on a weekly basis? it has taken 20 years to get the premier league to where it is now...

...into a position where only four of the twelve clubs in the Premiership make a profit (albeit just enough to stay afloat) and the remaining eight make financial losses year, after year, after year, after year, and only survive courtesy of handouts from the RFU and a bunch of sugar daddies who throw in huge cash injections to keep the receivers at bay. What a great business model that is!.

ANY other company would have been put into administration by now.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world use the lucrative international game to support their domestic competitions. While the Premiership and the Heineken Cup struggles to sell 1/3 to 1/2 full, small stadiums across the whole competition throughout the season, an England v All Blacks test at Twickenham plays in front of a crowd of 80,000+, and its usually oversubscribed by over 250%; i.e, if the stadium was big enough to hold 200,000, it would still be full.

In 2013, the Six Nations had a total attendance of over 1 million, about 70,000 per match for just 15 matches over a few weeks in February and March , while the 2012/13 Premiership had 1.7 million, about 12,000 per match over the whole season, 135 matches.

There's a clue in there somewhere if you look hard enough.

 

[McTallshort]

...into a position where only four of the twelve clubs in the Premiership make a profit (albeit just enough to stay afloat) and the remaining eight make financial losses year, after year, after year, after year, and only survive courtesy of handouts from the RFU and a bunch of sugar daddies who throw in huge cash injections to keep the receivers at bay. What a great business model that is!.

ANY other company would have been put into administration by now.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world use the lucrative international game to support their domestic competitions. While the Premiership and the Heineken Cup struggles to sell 1/3 to 1/2 full, small stadiums across the whole competition throughout the season, an England v All Blacks test at Twickenham plays in front of a crowd of 80,000+, and its usually oversubscribed by over 250%; i.e, if the stadium was big enough to hold 200,000, it would still be full.

In 2013, the Six Nations had a total attendance of over 1 million, about 70,000 per match for just 15 matches over a few weeks in February and March , while the 2012/13 Premiership had 1.7 million, about 12,000 per match over the whole season, 135 matches.

There's a clue in there somewhere if you look hard enough.

You have not got a clue, dont reply to my posts and I wont reply to yours.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Ok then the french and English clubs do what they are saying they are going to do and start a new competition. The IRB dont approve this and refuse to sanction this. Do the FFR and RFU then say right no players who stay with their club will play for England or France? Do you honestly think they would sell out out Twickers with players from Jersey and Leeds? Not a chance.

If the IRB don't sanction the tournament then the clubs will have to set up a governing body - to set up the laws of their new code, a refereeing infrastructure... the whole shebang.
I don't think they have the assets to do that. They've said they'll go to court if that happens - I don't know what the outcome of that would be, realistically.

The RFU already have their own domestic tournament - if they didn't have to support the Premiership, I'm sure that they could direct a significant amount of cash towards the Championship (as could the IRB if it came to it).
****... even the government would probably have enough cash to help out, considering that the RFU is hosting the WC.
Paying for 12 championship clubs extra wages - £60m-ish?
The WC is projected to generate around £250m revenue.

 

[McTallshort]

If the IRB don't sanction the tournament then the clubs will have to set up a governing body - to set up the laws of their new code, a refereeing infrastructure... the whole shebang.
I don't think they have the assets to do that. They've said they'll go to court if that happens - I don't know what the outcome of that would be, realistically.

The RFU already have their own domestic tournament - if they didn't have to support the Premiership, I'm sure that they could direct a significant amount of cash towards the Championship (as could the IRB if it came to it).

Do the RFU have the assets to turn the Championship into the premiership? no way in the world. The fans will still go to Northampton and Bath not Bedford or Bristol and why would the RFU want to fight with the clubs? as long as England produce a team with its best players for the world cup the IRB dont care if they are playing for some renegade league.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The point is though - Do the clubs have the assets to separate from the IRB?

They do need the RFU to have power over the clubs though, without it they cannot guarantee cooperation from the clubs when it comes to organising international games and tournaments.

 

[Amiga500]

Ok

1.The RFU (most unions for that matter) has a great and massive history at being completely hopeless at managing itself why the hell would they make things more stable thaan they are already?

2. Unions subsidies the club instead of a private owner? no difference apart from the owner will be (and often is) for the club and the union are mostly self serving.

3.What issues do we have in England now?

4.yeah obviously you may now more about that but the big drain on England players in the past is 4 autumn internationals instead of 3 so I dont see how the unions are more pro player welfare.

5. agree with what you say about soccer but we have a salary cap etc and this on the presumption that all unions are great noble organisations and all clubs are owned by rabid bond villian types...my experience its the other way around.

6. Never been fleeced by my club...

[1] As I understand it, the RFU consistently turn a profit - whereas the PRL as a whole is insolvent without external aid [including from the RFU!]. That would suggest they are relatively better managed.

[2] It is very different. As the union owns all the clubs - they can impose real spending limits on the club hierarchy without fear of consequences. Serious question - do you know how the Irish provinces work? Or want a quick rundown of how the provinces exist as semi-independent entities within a larger collective?

[3] If a player is not in the EPS, will Stuart Lancaster be able to select him for evaluation in an international training camp? England are competitive despite the ESP protocol, not because of it!

[4] That point says an awful lot - on many levels. To lift the two most pertinent; [A] you say 4 international games drain the players more than the dozen plus club games in the surrounding months without any international fixtures. your post infers you place club rugby as a higher priority than international rugby - which to be fair - would explain much of your posts to date. Is that the case?

[5] Not the case over here. I believe your view of the RFU is questionable and sounds very irrational.

[6] Give it time in the PRL-world.

 

[Amiga500]

Do the RFU have the assets to turn the Championship into the premiership? no way in the world.

All they have to do is render the PRL business model untenable. The quality doesn't have to be as good. All it has to do is continually drain PRL resources to the point they are broken.