Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[McTallshort]

It is in the best interests of the club. Whether the clubs can accurately see their best interests is up for question.

Take Saracens. They are a club well positioned to capture the floating casual rugby support base in London. So what do they do? Put on a massive display of fakery, constantly talk about moving big games abroad and transparent PR - all of which alienates a lot of casual rugby support. Wasps decision to move to Wycombe looks a mistake and a half with hindsight. And so on.

Certainly nobody sees their best interests accurately all the time.

Agree they might not but then look at the players that Sarries and Wasps have provided to England I would say they understand those interests.

Also I would say Wasps is more a francise than a club and they have failed to invest in the ways Exeter and Worcester have so could easily fail. As for Sarries..well they have tried some strange marketing ploys in the past I grant you but they are also the ones who pushed for the big club games at Twickernam that have benifited both clubs and RFU.

 

[smartcooky]

if the English clubs take part in a non-IRB sanctioned competition - an Anglo-French cup that either the French or we didn't sanction - then they have little choice but to finish the war that has been started for them. They must enforce sanctions or they will lose any future authority over the clubs.

They are actually required to enforce sanctions, or they risk being suspended from the iRB.

 

[ratsapprentice]

They almost certainly will tell the RFU to **** off as soon as they are big enough to live without them.
By taking control of their tournament they will be well on their way to doing that.

The PRL have already used the EPL as an example of what they would like to do.
If you really think that will create a system sympathetic to international rugby then I don't know what to say.

 

[smartcooky]

SInce the EPS how many bitter arguments have we had? I know there has been some in Wales and France but to my mind we have few here in England.

Perhaps you are not old enough to remember the the protracted negotiations over the Long Form agreement between PRL and the RFU, and the fact that the PRL took the RFU to court and got handed their arse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/5219320.stm

This is my take on it....having a succesful England team is in the best interest of the clubs because its the best place to show off their best assets. Also regarding France, the players have the power to ask for clauses in their contracts to stop that happening.

Yes they do, I'll grant you that. In fact, iRB regulations are clear that contracts must NOT have clauses that limit a player's availability for international duty.

[TEXTAREA]Regulation 9.3 No Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club whether by contract, conduct or otherwise may inhibit, prevent, discourage, disincentivise or render unavailable any Player from selection, attendance and appearance in a National Representative Team or National Squad session when such
request for selection, attendance and appearance is made in accordance with the provisions of this Regulation 9. Any agreement and/or
arrangement between a Player and a Rugby Body or Club or between a Union or an Association and a Rugby Body or Club (and/or any proposal
made and/or attempted to be made howsoever communicated) which is contrary to this Regulation 9.3 is prohibited, including, but not limited to
any agreement and/or arrangement and/or proposal pursuant to which a Player is (or would be) unable to exercise the right to play for a Union.

Regulation 9.4 Subject to Regulation 9.18, no Union, Association, Rugby Body or Club may require any payment or other benefit from or impose conditions
relating to a Player's participation in a National Representative Team and/or attendance at a National Squad session of his Union when such
participation and/or attendance has been requested in accordance with the provisions of this Regulation 9.[/TEXTAREA]

However, that does not prevent teams from implying to the player that the will not get a contract, or may not have their contract renewed if they insist on playing for their country. French Top14 teams are the biggest culprits in this, e.g.

Marcelo Bosch cut from Biarritz
Leonardo Senatore cut from Toulon

And PRL clubs have done this too, with Horatio Agulla cut from Leicester Tigers

All three, because they want to play for the Pumas in The Rugby Championship

There have been numerous instances where Fijian and Samoan players have been denied releases to play for their countries. Its quite the opposite, here, where coaches encourage their players to go, knowing that the higher level of international rugby hardens them and they often come back better, keener and hungrier players.

 

[Amiga500]

Perhaps you are not old enough to remember the the protracted negotiations over the Long Form agreement between PRL and the RFU, and the fact that the PRL took the RFU to court and got handed their arse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/international/5219320.stm

Thank you. Perfect example of why this PRL push should be totally opposed.


Not that I expect Tallshort to confront this herd of elephants in the room. His head is probably buried under 10 feet of sand by now.

 

[McTallshort]

Lets see hey, will come back in 6 months time and if you are all right I will buy you all a coke.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I've been poking around a bit out of curiosity:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/november/news articles/rfuandprlsignneweightyearagreement

In return, the RFU has agreed to pay PRL clubs �102 million over the course of the agreement plus a share of the net revenues from a fourth Autumn International every other year which should take the total RFU payment for PRL Clubs to around �110m over the period of the agreement. Clubs will only receive payment under the Agreement by having players in one or more of the 3 EPS squads and/or through compensation payments under the EQP scheme and/or by running an RFU licensed Academy.
As part of the Agreement, PRL shall be solely responsible for negotiating the sale of their own TV, media & Sponsorship rights and giving directions to ERC in respect of England's position on the sale of the TV, media and sponsorship rights related to the European Rugby Cup and European Challenge Cup.

Two things to note:

1. The RFU is paying the clubs quite a significant amount of money for the EQP (£27m over the next two years).
Which is again significant regarding the RFU's ability to re-affirm it's control of the game.

2. The wording of the second part (regarding the selling of rights) seems to indicate that the PRL only have the right to deal or not deal with the ERC.
Not to create their own tournament?

Could be a whole lot of nothing, especially without seeing the actual agreement... but anyway, it is what it is.

 

[Packman]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8954238,00.html

My first impression was "Oops looks like Scotland have folded." Then I realised I was buying into all the bull. This my friends, is the Celts and ERC showing they are willing to negociate. They can point to this on the 26th October and say, "Well we turned up to resolve this at the meeting, but PRL and LNRs refusal to even turn up proves they are just acting as wreckers to the ERC contract. We're going to take them to court and invite the FFR and RFU to further meetings"

PRL and LNR will be taken to court for reneging on the ERC contract sooner or later. The Pro Europe side are just making it very clear who exactly wrecked the Heineken cup by not even attempting to come to an agreement.

The ironic thing is that if SRU had said this before all the BT shinnanagins then both PRL and LNR would have been happy to take the victory. Unfortunatley its not abiout qualification any more its about 158 million pounds that can only be got hold of if PRL can wreck the ERC contract...

Oh and lets not forget about Italy... Although maybe nobody really gives a damn about Italy... I guess we're find out before the end of the season. My views are clear on Italy. if a patient is brought into hospital critically injured he'll get more doctors working to save him than a fit guy with an ingrowing toenail. Italy should get auto qualification and a decent slice of funding. How else are they going to be able to improve??? PRL and LNR are happy to cherry pick the best italian players and throw Italian Rugby on the rubbish heap. That's not rugby, that's poofby. Its time to decide what you want this sport to stand for.

 

[ratsapprentice]

My first impression was "Oops looks like Scotland have folded." Then I realised I was buying into all the bull. This my friends, is the Celts and ERC showing they are willing to negociate. They can point to this on the 26th October and say, "Well we turned up to resolve this at the meeting, but PRL and LNRs refusal to even turn up proves they are just acting as wreckers to the ERC contract. We're going to take them to court and invite the FFR and RFU to further meetings"

PRL and LNR will be taken to court for reneging on the ERC contract sooner or later. The Pro Europe side are just making it very clear who exactly wrecked the Heineken cup by not even attempting to come to an agreement.

You're first point is almost certainly correct.

But the second part...? I am pretty sure they have done nothing wrong in legal terms by leaving the ERC.
They gave the required notice, largely because the other ERC unions weren't attempting to compromise.

What I am highly doubtful of however, is the legality of their contract with BT.
It simply doesn't sound right.

 

[McTallshort]

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_8954238,00.html

My first impression was "Oops looks like Scotland have folded." Then I realised I was buying into all the bull. This my friends, is the Celts and ERC showing they are willing to negociate. They can point to this on the 26th October and say, "Well we turned up to resolve this at the meeting, but PRL and LNRs refusal to even turn up proves they are just acting as wreckers to the ERC contract. We're going to take them to court and invite the FFR and RFU to further meetings"

PRL and LNR will be taken to court for reneging on the ERC contract sooner or later. The Pro Europe side are just making it very clear who exactly wrecked the Heineken cup by not even attempting to come to an agreement.

The ironic thing is that if SRU had said this before all the BT shinnanagins then both PRL and LNR would have been happy to take the victory. Unfortunatley its not abiout qualification any more its about 158 million pounds that can only be got hold of if PRL can wreck the ERC contract...

Oh and lets not forget about Italy... Although maybe nobody really gives a damn about Italy... I guess we're find out before the end of the season. My views are clear on Italy. if a patient is brought into hospital critically injured he'll get more doctors working to save him than a fit guy with an ingrowing toenail. Italy should get auto qualification and a decent slice of funding. How else are they going to be able to improve??? PRL and LNR are happy to cherry pick the best italian players and throw Italian Rugby on the rubbish heap. That's not rugby, that's poofby. Its time to decide what you want this sport to stand for.

So where has the Negotiation been till now? All the years the PRL and LNR complained about quailfication etc???? They only want to now because they didnt think the PRL and LNR would ever actually hand their notice in and when they did they still left it a year. Anyway what is there to negociate? The PRL and LNR have handed their notice in..end of

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/feat...face-oblivion-if-rfu-take-on-prl-over-europe/

 

[McTallshort]

Great a regional model like the Welsh....oh how well thats worked

 

[Packman]

Well that is some serious fighting talk from Jeff Probyn.

"The European competitions would remain under Union control, enabling them to continue the role of developing rugby across the whole of the European rugby community while PRL would have caught the bus to their own Financial Oblivion!" - Jeff Probyn.

I don't want to see Leicester crash and burn, they are my team, I can't wait to see them lock horns with Northampton on Saturday and then there's the trip to Ravenhill next friday which is going to be EPIC! But I can't support PRL in a power struggle that's designed to see Professional rugby in England go down the Football route where the international game is a side show. International rugby union is the envy of so many sports and the reasons so many of us, (me included) got into rugby the first place.

The RFU have singularly failed to pick a side so far, so the idea of them being as forceful and Jeff Probyn discribes in his article is appearing to be far fetched to say the least. One thing is for sure if the defenders of this sport let it turn into football then it will be a sad day for anyone who has a romantic bone in their body. Anyone who believes rugby union is unique and special and has a legacy and a reputation to be inspired by.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I feel that a regional model is possible without dissolving the clubs.
Similar to the NPC/Curry Cup's relationship with SupeRugby in SA and NZ.

The two main difficulties involved with doing that would be 1) Taking control of the clubs centrally and 2) defining the regions.

You can't talk about damaging the clubs whilst ignoring the potential damage to international rugby posed by the PRL and LNR's proposals.

 

[Packman]

Great a regional model like the Welsh....oh how well thats worked

Oh boy, are we doing this again? All those grand slams... what were they thinking?

Okay seriously Tallshort, do you care at all about the international scene? Just imagine that you were Italian. You'd be feeling pretty bitter right now wouldn't you. Turned out rugby union, for all its denials, really is a 8 man closed shop when it comes down to it afterall right? Actually I think eight is a generous nobody really cares about the joint oldest test side either.

All we want is what's best for rugby. if PRL FORCE us to to pick between club and country with the loser losing everything then I pick England.

 

[McTallshort]

So somethings got to get wrecked eh? umm really really dont like the thought of a regional model like the welsh. It will damage the clubs considerably and then you have to secure players for Regions and England.

How would a regional model look?

 

[McTallshort]

Oh boy, are we doing this again? All those grand slams... what were they thinking?

Okay seriously Tallshort, do you care at all about the international scene? Just imagine that you were Italian. You'd be feeling preety bitter right now wouldn't you. Turned out rugby union, for all its denials, really is a 8 man closed shop when it comes down to it afterall right? Actually I think eight is a generous nobody really cares about the joint oldest test side either.

All we want is what's best for rugby. if PRL FORCE us to to pick between club and country with the loser losing everything then I pick England.

Yeah all that automatic funding every year...would be well ******

 

[Packman]

I feel that a regional model is possible without dissolving the clubs.
Similar to the NPC/Curry Cup's relationship with SupeRugby in SA and NZ.

The two main difficulties involved with doing that would be 1) Taking control of the clubs centrally and 2) defining the regions.

You can't talk about damaging the clubs whilst ignoring the potential damage to international rugby posed by the PRL and LNR's proposals.

A admirably reasonable point of view. It's one of the reasons in my opinion that the All Blacks have dominated rugby union for so many decades.

 

[Packman]

Yeah all that automatic funding every year...would be well ******

The funding PRL are trying to take away you mean?

If you were Italian and you saw LNR and PRL pushing to have that funding taken away wouldnt you feel bitter and be concerned as to how your teams were ever going to improve?

 

[McTallshort]

Hold on...Italian rugby has done well out of the last 15 years included in the 6 nations when at the time Romania had just as good a shout, more funding per pro team than everyone apart from Scotland from the ERC if they have not managed to develop then sorry thats their fault.