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Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

So to move england a few places up the world ranking you would sacrifise the clubs?! England won a world cup on a poorer union club deal than we have now what makes you think making 6 regions no one will watch will somehow produce a great rugby side?

What club do you support rats?
 
Look, I have already stated very clearly what I think the PRL will turn into if given what they want.
We will end up with a situation like the one the England football team are in - balls deep in a morass of meaningless "friendlies" and embarrassing performances.

I support teams rather than clubs. I used to support Leicester a few years ago (the Rabeni, Varndell, Tuilagi, Mauger, Castro team).
But now I'd say Bath, because I like the team they've been building for the last couple of seasons.
If I was to pick a local team I could choose between Wasps and Saracens, as I live in NW London.
I went to school right next to where Allianz Park is now situated, and people from said school with are currently playing for both of those clubs.
I would gladly support a regional London/SW team.
 
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So you have no real affiliation to any one club?

That's why you would be fine to see the clubs turned to regions to support the national team. Nothiing at all wrong with that mate but I have been going to welford road for too long to see it turned into some east midlands region just to keep the ERC or even the IRB happy.

And they are not teams they are clubs
 
READ WHAT I AM SAYING!

I am NOT calling for Leicester (or ANY club) to be disbanded.
Jesus ****ing christ.
 
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So what are you calling for?

Since leicester went pro the club has grown massivly both in terms of season tickets and commercal power and you want them to hand that over to a region just so the status quo can continue in europe? Or so they don't become to powerful? **** you why should they give all that up to keep arm chair supporters like you happy?
 
So to move england a few places up the world ranking you would sacrifise the clubs?! England won a world cup on a poorer union club deal than we have now what makes you think making 6 regions no one will watch will somehow produce a great rugby side?

Why do you think the Clubs would need to be sacrificed?

► You keep the Premiership competition as it is.
► The Clubs themselves don't actually compete in Europe, but all the clubs in the region get a cut from the gate takings, and payment from the RFU for players who play in The Heineken Cup.
► The RFU pays for the set up and running of the regions.
► Clubs in each region, along with the RFU, have representation on the boards of directors for the Regional Franchises

Each of the six regions will have the combined resources of more than one club, so the playing strength would be greater than any single club side, increasing their chances of winning.

I can't see how it wouldn't work. Its just needs people to get over themselves.

As a Leicester supporter...

- Do you support any other teams in the Nottingham, Lincolnshire and Derbyshire part of Midlands RFU, a team you have played for perhaps.
- If the All Blacks came to town, and played a "Midland Counties" team at Welford Road (as they did in 1973) would you go to support "your" team?
 
I'm calling for the PRL and the French to return to the ERC talks as both the WRU and SRU have publicly stated that they would accept the the changes being called for regarding revenue and qualification.

Failing that:

- The RFU to buy out as many clubs as possible and withdrawing them from the premiership, with a view to ending their relationship with PRL ASAP.
Players would be contracted centrally.

- A domestic league almost exactly the same as the current Premiership (essentially just taking ownership away from PRL). 12 Clubs, play-offs and promotion/relegation to a second tier.
Those clubs who the RFU are unable to buy or are not willing to be bought out would be invited to play in the new elite league.
These clubs will be bought out systematically as a matter of priority.

That would be the priority. Secondary to that: I would like a regional system setup in a similar fashion to the NPC/SuperXV system in NZ, this is my preference but is certainly not my priority.
This would entail:

- 6 Regions with players contracted independently (and centrally), based on the elite clubs within each region (as explained in my previous post).
These regions would only compete in a European competition.

If you would like to see an example of this set-up please look at the ITM Cup and the SuperXV.


EDIT: And I completely agree with SC.

What I am proposing would not encroach on games like this weekends East Midlands derby.
 
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I do like how the Irish are becoming the brunt of English dissatisfaction at the moment. You'd swear that our sides have been far, far superior to theirs over recent years or something :p
 
Why do you think the Clubs would need to be sacrificed?

► You keep the Premiership competition as it is.
► The Clubs themselves don't actually compete in Europe, but all the clubs in the region get a cut from the gate takings, and payment from the RFU for players who play in The Heineken Cup.
► The RFU pays for the set up and running of the regions.
► Clubs in each region, along with the RFU, have representation on the boards of directors for the Regional Franchises

Each of the six regions will have the combined resources of more than one club, so the playing strength would be greater than any single club side, increasing their chances of winning.

I can't see how it wouldn't work. Its just needs people to get over themselves.

As a Leicester supporter...

- Do you support any other teams in the Nottingham, Lincolnshire and Derbyshire part of Midlands RFU, a team you have played for perhaps.
- If the All Blacks came to town, and played a "Midland Counties" team at Welford Road (as they did in 1973) would you go to support "your" team?

Your plan sounds great in theory except you have forgotten that the RFU, the government, local councils, businessmen, etc... have all spent the past 20 years investing large amounts of money into club rugby. For the RFU to just turn around and scrap it all would be very foolish. You would be opening up a can of worms that you don't want opening up and I think the RFU would implode if this occurred.

As for the international game being marginalized..... how is it being marginalized in any way shape or form by the clubs and what the hell does this even have to do with the LNR and PRL wanting to start their own tournament to replace the Heineken Cup. I think at the end of the day this conflict right now is a good thing in the long term because it will force some of the unions to haul their heads out of their 4th point of contact. The Pro12 needs to get its **** together and turn it self into a viable league, European Rugby should compliment each respective domestic league and not be its backstop.
 
Your plan sounds great in theory except you have forgotten that the RFU, the government, local councils, businessmen, etc... have all spent the past 20 years investing large amounts of money into club rugby. For the RFU to just turn around and scrap it all would be very foolish. You would be opening up a can of worms that you don't want opening up and I think the RFU would implode if this occurred.

As for the international game being marginalized..... how is it being marginalized in any way shape or form by the clubs and what the hell does this even have to do with the LNR and PRL wanting to start their own tournament to replace the Heineken Cup. I think at the end of the day this conflict right now is a good thing in the long term because it will force some of the unions to haul their heads out of their 4th point of contact. The Pro12 needs to get its **** together and turn it self into a viable league, European Rugby should compliment each respective domestic league and not be its backstop.


Now what on Earth does this mean?
 
For every club supporter who'd take the hump and decide they wouldn't support a region just because they'd supplanted the clubs in the Heineken Cup there's probably about... I've no idea of the numbers really. But there's 2.5m people affiliated with RFU clubs and only 1m people watching the Premiership highlights on the last count. There's like, what, about 100k people walking through the turnstiles most weekends? If that.

But the point is there's an awful lot of rugby fans who don't support a big pro club. They support England, and the team they play for, and maybe one of the pro sides. They probably don't support them that heavily. That's probably truer of some parts of the country than others, but certainly at my club, I've basically described everyone there. I've described most of the people I know at other clubs too.

Basically - there's enough casual rugby support in England untapped that a group of pee'd off club supporters might not be the end of the world. There probably wouldn't be that many of them if we followed the Kiwi model. However... that would require a pretty big change to the season I think.
 
Your plan sounds great in theory except you have forgotten that the RFU, the government, local councils, businessmen, etc... have all spent the past 20 years investing large amounts of money into club rugby. For the RFU to just turn around and scrap it all would be very foolish. You would be opening up a can of worms that you don't want opening up and I think the RFU would implode if this occurred..

The bit in red makes it appear that you have actually read what I posted

The bit in blue tells me that you haven't
 
You stupid ********. Do you have no understanding of the world around you at all?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/analysis-10-years-regional-rugby-5867185


Go ask the Welsh would they swap their 3 grand slams of the last decade for club rugby still being top-dog in their domestic game.

That is a interesting read, and i don't think anyone can disagree with the success that the Wales team has had. But, seeing as many of it's top players will now be based abroad, does that mean any further success can be down to the PRL/LNR system they play in? I don't think so.
It also heaps praise on the development of the Wales U20 side, but then points out that it was beaten by the England U20 side in the recent final....so surely that means the PRL system of development is the better? I don't think so.

It says to me that the current Wales team are very good and have a good management team in Gats etc. But i still believe it suffers from squad depth, as the recent tour to Japan showed. England had a great team in 2003, but were shown to be lacking in depth soon after with retirements and injuries, resulting in being the worst defending WC champs ever.

IMO, only NZ can truly say they have a great team fed by a great development system, and again IMO it's down to the mentality of the NZder with regards to its No1 sport.

As for what Tallshort is alluding to....i think this quote from that article is what is worrying him and many others:

And public apathy towards the regions still exists in a country where club rugby was king and tribalism runs deep.

IMO the whole article seems to suggest that although the Wales team is doing ok, everything below is not producing the goods which the domestic public want.
 
BTW, anyone who thinks i'm a club man, forget it. Smartcooky knows me and can verify that i am England thru & thru. But i think that we are now where we are due to the ERC/Rabo12 apathy with regards the French & English concerns. The fact that they now concede to most points regarding qualification and finance shows the stupidity of their initial stance.
Yes it may now be a battle over power, but i know who i blame for letting it get this far. But i too lean towards Ratsapprentice view that although the PRL/LNR had justification for their stance, i too fear for the national team and side with whatever keeps that as top priority.
 
But i think that we are now where we are due to the ERC/Rabo12 apathy with regards the French & English concerns. The fact that they now concede to most points regarding qualification and finance shows the stupidity of their initial stance.
Yes it may now be a battle over power, but i know who i blame for letting it get this far.

Are you serious?

PRL signed the BT deal a matter of weeks after publically declaring their leave of ERC. You don't sign contracts worth hundreds of millions in a matter of weeks.

This was always happening and it was over two things:
1. Money
2. Power

The qualification issue was a nice sideshow which looked good on newspapers - but ultimately the PRL didn't give a ***** about Zebre or Edinburgh being in the HEC beyond them taking money that could otherwise have went to the PRL. Sporting integrity is so far down their list of priorities its right alongside should standardised loo roll is used in the stadia for HEC games.


There are two entirely different philosophies here:
1. The big clubs should get more money because... well... they are the big clubs. A system similar to the soccer Premiership.
2. A more progressive distribution of monies should be encouraged to improve competitiveness. A system similar to the NFL in the states.

Personally, I am strongly in favour of the latter. Leicester fans will go to Ravenhill on Friday night looking forward to a ***anic battle, one which they could realistically win. Ulstermen and women will do exactly the same. Either team have very realistic chances of winning which makes it all the more intriguing.

If the PRL had its way, then Leicester would probably walk over Ulster. Indeed, the HEC would reduce to 4+2+1 effective games. The Top 4 clubs in France vs. the top 4 clubs in England. Its already happening with the salary cap lip-service in England and the millionaire's plaything in France.

Right now, the beauty of the HEC is - nearly every damn game counts. Your looking at dozens of crucial games - which makes it unmissable.

[Not to mention the wider implications for the 6N and the health of the sport as a significant spectator and participant sport.]




That is a interesting read, and i don't think anyone can disagree with the success that the Wales team has had. But, seeing as many of it's top players will now be based abroad, does that mean any further success can be down to the PRL/LNR system they play in? I don't think so.

The PRL/LNR system didn't develop their skillsets though. It didn't provide the Darwinian environment for them to learn the lessons that can only be learned through experience at high-enough levels.

It also heaps praise on the development of the Wales U20 side, but then points out that it was beaten by the England U20 side in the recent final....so surely that means the PRL system of development is the better? I don't think so.

It says to me that the current Wales team are very good and have a good management team in Gats etc. But i still believe it suffers from squad depth, as the recent tour to Japan showed. England had a great team in 2003, but were shown to be lacking in depth soon after with retirements and injuries, resulting in being the worst defending WC champs ever.

What is the population of Wales?

C'mon - try and compare like with like!
 
What is the population of Wales?

C'mon - try and compare like with like!

As you asked :p It's something in the region of 3,000,000 v 53,000,000. In a numbers game sure England have a higher chance of producing more players of a higher quality But then look at NZ so numbers isn't a huge part of the game really.

On the topic though most of it is a pure power and money move by the PRL and LNR as pointed out alot earlier in the thread the current money breakdown is pretty equal in terms of share per club it just looks lopsided as the Pro12 nations get lumped together when there is 10/11 teams compared to 6 from England & France.

Teams have said the qualification aspect they would agree with and imo it should be the top 8 Pro 12 teams qualify to make the tournament 20 teams. The development of Scottish and Italian teams may suffer a bit but long run it should push them to aim for the top slots of the league to qualify etc.
 
TrueSlawter "the current money breakdown is pretty equal in terms of share per club". Are you sure ? I suppose it depends how one looks at it. Any way you like to calculate it (competing clubs, all clubs, with or without extra clubs for winning nations), the Irish and Welsh get the worst deal now. It's only when calculated on spreading the national share to all clubs that the Irish and Welsh are close to the Franglais. In terms of share per competing club, the Irish and Welsh get half the money now that the Franglais clubs get and the Scots and Italians don't get as much either.

Given all the excellent (?) arguments about so many issues, I can't remember why supporters of Franglais clubs say the current 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 revenue share per league is unfair ? The PR releases make it sound as if it's currently 1/6 each per country and therefore unfair. Do the ("top" = most powerful) Franglais clubs claim it's unfair because their unions spread their 1/3 revenue evenly between all 12 / 14 clubs ? Or is their complaint based on the fact that there are more TV viewers in England and France ? In which case, as a Rabo supporter based in England, can they please note that I watch HEC matches only if they involve any Irish, some Welsh, some French, some Scottish, one Italian and one English club ? ie at least take into account that English HEC TV audiences include a lot of expat Rabolanders who don't bother to watch the Aviva (and won't bother with the Franglais Champions Cup).

Looking ahead to when (if ever) all 6 nations play in Europe together again, hopefully next season, isn't it more likely that parties will agree on the current 24 clubs for the main competition - rather than 20 ? ie maybe 7-7-8-2 rather than 6-6-8-0 ? Being a supporter of the Rabo, that's obviously worse but if we have to be generous to help grow the game in England and France, then so be it !
 
TrueSlawter "the current money breakdown is pretty equal in terms of share per club". Are you sure ? I suppose it depends how one looks at it. Any way you like to calculate it (competing clubs, all clubs, with or without extra clubs for winning nations), the Irish and Welsh get the worst deal now. It's only when calculated on spreading the national share to all clubs that the Irish and Welsh are close to the Franglais. In terms of share per competing club, the Irish and Welsh get half the money now that the Franglais clubs get and the Scots and Italians don't get as much either.

Given all the excellent (?) arguments about so many issues, I can't remember why supporters of Franglais clubs say the current 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 revenue share per league is unfair ? The PR releases make it sound as if it's currently 1/6 each per country and therefore unfair. Do the ("top" = most powerful) Franglais clubs claim it's unfair because their unions spread their 1/3 revenue evenly between all 12 / 14 clubs ? Or is their complaint based on the fact that there are more TV viewers in England and France ? In which case, as a Rabo supporter based in England, can they please note that I watch HEC matches only if they involve any Irish, some Welsh, some French, some Scottish, one Italian and one English club ? ie at least take into account that English HEC TV audiences include a lot of expat Rabolanders who don't bother to watch the Aviva (and won't bother with the Franglais Champions Cup).

Looking ahead to when (if ever) all 6 nations play in Europe together again, hopefully next season, isn't it more likely that parties will agree on the current 24 clubs for the main competition - rather than 20 ? ie maybe 7-7-8-2 rather than 6-6-8-0 ? Being a supporter of the Rabo, that's obviously worse but if we have to be generous to help grow the game in England and France, then so be it !



The current 52% to Pro12 and 24% to PRL and 24% to LNR works out alright if its split using this (as I've posted before)

"24% / 6 teams = 4% per team. (For England and France) the potential for a 7th is there of which things change to 3.42%

52% / 4 nations involved = 13% per nation.
which is 4.33% for the Irish / Welsh with only 3 in the cup or 3.25% if 4 qualify.

The Italians and Scottish get 6.9% each but they are the only real outlier as things currently stand so percentage of shares is currently fairly evenly distributed."

So if it does work that way (it may not and likely doesnt) the Irish and Welsh get a slightly better or worse (situation depending) than the English and French with the Scots and Italians getting more than both. the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 I don't agree with as with the breakdown above its 1/3 between 6, 1/3 between 6 and 1/3 between 8 in the proposed things making a smaller share per club for the "celtic" clubs.
 
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