Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

No one is allowed a different opinion to you is that it?

When the opinion is based on a prejudice that is completely and utterly incorrect you can expect it to be confronted.

 

[Draggs]

Keep the insults for the schoolyards.
Enough personal attacks or I'll just shut the thread.

 

[smartcooky]

BTW, anyone who thinks i'm a club man, forget it. Smartcooky knows me and can verify that i am England thru & thru. But i think that we are now where we are due to the ERC/Rabo12 apathy with regards the French & English concerns. The fact that they now concede to most points regarding qualification and finance shows the stupidity of their initial stance.
Yes it may now be a battle over power, but i know who i blame for letting it get this far. But i too lean towards Ratsapprentice view that although the PRL/LNR had justification for their stance, i too fear for the national team and side with whatever keeps that as top priority.

Yep! So verified!

I have known you for several years, you [strike]cantankerous old prick[/strike] nice man, you!

 

[St George]

Yep! So verified!

I have known you for several years, you [strike]cantankerous old prick[/strike] nice man, you!

Not so much of the old....i'm still your junior.

 

[St George]

Are you serious?

PRL signed the BT deal a matter of weeks after publically declaring their leave of ERC. You don't sign contracts worth hundreds of millions in a matter of weeks.

This was always happening and it was over two things:
1. Money
2. Power

The qualification issue was a nice sideshow which looked good on newspapers - but ultimately the PRL didn't give a ***** about Zebre or Edinburgh being in the HEC beyond them taking money that could otherwise have went to the PRL. Sporting integrity is so far down their list of priorities its right alongside should standardised loo roll is used in the stadia for HEC games.

Yes i am deadly serious.

The PRL & LNR had expressed concerns about the HC format long before they pulled out, and whilst BT were still just making phone calls. Any suggestion that the PRL had some preordained plan to gain power is just pure speculation, as all it would of taken was for the ERC/Rabo12 to agree to the original demands and the LNR would of done a deal leaving the PRL isolated. But maybe the LNR were in on it, you may say. But it would of been quite absurd for the PRL/LNR to demand this, that & the other, and then once getting this, that & the other to then say oh and we also want something else. Either collectively or unilaterally. Pure guesswork on your part.
Personally i can see that the PRL were in discusion for a change of their individual TV rights regarding the Aviva, which they are fully entitled to do within the agreement they have with the RFU, and seeing that the ERC/Rabo12 had not moved from their intransigence, also planned for future with regard having to breakaway. But again pure guesswork with no sound basis of fact or proof.

I maintain my opinion that all this would of been avoidable if the ERC/Rabo12 had originally agreed to the changes which they now seem ready to do. Pure & simples.

 

[St George]

What is the population of Wales?

C'mon - try and compare like with like!

Irrelevent to the meaning of my post.

You aggressively posted an article which seemed to be praising the merits of the Welsh Regions, in response to Tallshort having reservations about a Regional based concept for England. One of those merits was the success of the Wales U20. I merely pointed out, as the article itself highlights, that the current England club setup bettered that by beating the Wales U20 to win the U20 World Cup.

I have stated before, i see no reason why the English, or French for that matter, need to change their systems just so to come in line with the Kiwi model. It's horses for courses as far as i'm concerned, and the current setups seem to be doing ok.

And, BTW, as for the Wales Regions being responsible for the skillsets and development of the Welsh rugby players, i would think that the Welsh Premier Division had an early hand in that, and then the Wales' national rugby academy, all of which could of still occurred irrespective of the setting up of the regional system.

 

[Packman]

At the end of this weekend we'll all be reminded of just what we fans and the rugby players stand to lose out on if PRL and LNR are allowed to walk away. I'm sure rugby players will be asked about the future of the european cup in pre-match build ups and post match interviews. I hope they articulate their individual opinions rather than toeing the club line. If they do so in an polite manner, making sure the public knows they are speaking from their own point of view then I don't think the clubs can complain if they say they want that chance to play against Leinster, Glasgow, Trevio, Clermont and Ospreys next season.

The rugby on the pitch is certainly playing 2nd fiddle to acountants and big business. That's wrong. The players do need to take responsibility and make their voices heard. Being a professional rugby player isn't just about making bunny ears behind the PM's head. Be a role model. Be someone we can look up to. Be a guardian of the game.

 

[Prestwick]

Look, the issue here isn't about what either ERC or PRL/LNR actually want, this is about an issue which could mean financial ruin for either side (let alone the impact on the national sides of Europe and beyond) being debated frankly by amateurs. You've had ERC and the Celtic unions who frankly haven't taken the other side's grievances seriously and sat around twiddling their thumbs, constructing matchstick ships in bottles and basically doing literally anything other than holding crunch talks to sort the issue out like they should have done last year. PRL & LNR serve notice that they'll leave after 2013/14 and what does ERC do? Schedule a regular meeting a month and a half away and act like nothing happened.

Meanwhile PRL's media strategy of unleashing random club owners to rampage around the news media like the juggernaut (*****) which frankly doesn't help things very much as its aggravated what should have been a sane, if high stakes, debate on the future of H-Cup. Excitedly doing a running commentary on the latest behind the scenes developments of this Champions Cup has also served to inflame tensions and polarise opinions on both sides!

And lets not forget how both sides have managed to turn seemingly innocuous television deals into political nuclear weapons.

The result has been a clusterf*ck which makes whats going on in Washington DC seem like a bi-partisan utopia and frankly spells doom for a competition which even six months ago was supposedly "too big to fail." Guess what? Its going to fail and while French rugby can survive without European competition, the fallout of the demise of the H-Cup could cripple Northern Hemisphere rugby for years to come.

 

[coolbawn]

I agree with most of that, Prestwick. Ironically, you might have fallen for the PRL media strategy you mention, when you state that ERC and the Celtic unions have sat around twiddling their thumbs. How do we know unless we were at all those meetings ? Only the "rampaging" PRL talk about those meetings. So we don't know for sure.

The other irony is that McClafferty was the ERC Commercial Chairman, so if ERC didn't do anything about sorting out the commercial things he moans about (TV deal and internal revenue share), either he should blame himself or he never intended that ERC should sort it out.

Mark Souster at The Times seems to have good Celtic contacts as he seemed to specialize in Celtic rugby matters before becoming their chief rugby correspondent. In today's Times he suggests that Ian Ritchie et al are making progress behind the scenes - always the most likely scenario.

 

[Prestwick]

This is where the RFU have been the stand out players in this whole saga. They've risen above the whole drama and walked an extremely fine line in order to help arbitrate this without offending the clubs or the unions.

 

[j'nuh]

Here's a thought: why doesn't the teams from the Pro12 agree to the demands set by the French/English, as long as a European salary cap (of approx. £5-6m) is set, with a long-term plan for its increase (inflation + link to increases in average profit).

French (and maybe eventually English) teams can still pay to a higher cap for a squad for their domestic competition, but cannot register more than the European salary cap worth of players for the HC. (Registration occurs at the start of the season and injured players can be replaced from within the larger, domestic squad.)

The purpose would be to bring the wage bill of the top teams down to be more in line with that of the English and Pro12 teams, thereby reducing the amount that needs to be spent to remain competitive. It should also help to counter the player drain from Pro12 teams by reducing the excess of the French.

This system would probably mean that Scotland and Italy have to invest more fully in one club each. Instead of guaranteed spots for all 4, only the top Scottish and Italian teams should be guaranteed spots. But this is basically what happens anyway... Treviso and Glasgow are miles ahead of Zebre and Edinburgh, and the latter two don't have much right to be in the competition. Zebre and Edinburgh can then focus on success in the challenge cup, where they aren't going to be embarrassed week-after-week, and may even gain some success. They can also be used as a testing ground for younger players. But this system would help a lot of clubs:

1. The French get their demands. And although the top French teams cannot run away with it by having the deepest, most talented squad, the increased competition in the tournament will more than make up for this (also making the tournament more valuable in the future, for increased deals). In fact, clubs like Perpignan and Castres may find that this helps them. The only clubs that lose out are Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont etc., who can no longer pay for success (which isn't what a competition should be, anyway).

2. The English and Pro12 teams find it easier to compete with the excesses of the French.

 

[Peat]

The Welsh salary cap is 3.5m. A salary cap of 5-6m does not save them. I'm all up for a salary cap for Europe but that will not meet the needs of the Celtic unions.

Also, there's still the very thorny issue of TV rights.

 

[j'nuh]

The only reason I propose £5-6m, is that any lower and I doubt the French would entertain such an idea. Even as I write this suggestion, I feel that the major sticking point would be getting the French to agree with a significantly lower salary cap than their domestic cap.

My point isn't to try and get the Celtic regions paying up to £5-6m, but rather get the top French teams to pay down to it, which indirectly helps the teams without the money.

The Welsh or even English teams may not be able to pay up to this cap, but they can certainly fit more under their smaller cap. Look at the Ospreys. They have several Lions, and internationals in most positions. No way would a French team be able to assemble a team like that with £3.5m or less.

 

[Peat]

I'm not quite sure how the Ospreys and this supposed cap of £3.5 works tbh :lol:

I see where you're coming from I just don't think its going to work. I don't think you can establish a cap the French will agree to that will help the likes of Wales enough.

Tbh, best possible answer is for the Pro 12 to just up their game and start getting the revenues in. Ironically, the PRL have given them the best possible start by ******* off Sky. Hopefully that deal and a new sponsorship deal will put a more lead in their pencil.

 

[bertiec]

The remarks about "arrogant pr..." etc are so infuriating. This is a championship not a charity for the nerdowells of European rugby. The English and French teams that just miss out are far better than some teams that have an easy ride. As for tv rights, as far as ERC contracts end in 14 they have no rights to sell for the unions without thier go ahead. So, England have nothing to stop them selling the rights to whomever they want.

 

[psychic duck]

I'm not quite sure how the Ospreys and this supposed cap of £3.5 works tbh :lol:

It works by 1) having developed the vast majority of the squad themselves 2) having a cheap academy U23 side as second choice depth and 3) having sold off virtually every well known overseas player and several expensive backs for cheap Tier 2, journeymen club players or simply new rising talents.

 

[smartcooky]

The remarks about "arrogant pr..." etc are so infuriating. This is a championship not a charity for the nerdowells of European rugby.

Perhaps so, but this is the exact same group of individuals who put out a document a few years ago called "Putting Rugby First"; who wanted to treat the Rugby World Cup as a charity and a development tournament. They advocated that the 2011 RWC should have been awarded to Japan, not New Zealand.

How noble of them. The silence from this group of self-interested morons was deafening when England were awarded The Cup for 2015,

The English and French teams that just miss out are far better than some teams that have an easy ride.

That is such an Franglo-centric view. The EUROPEAN CUP is about competition between the best club/provincial teams in EACH COUNTRY in Europe, not just the best teams overall. Otherwise, the same criteria could be applied to the RWC. Just don't bother with all the minnows and all the teams who have no chance of winning it, and make it a competition between New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, England, France and Wales.

But hang on a bit... Scotland semifinalists in 1991, Argentina semifinalists in 2007

As for tv rights, as far as ERC contracts end in 14 they have no rights to sell for the unions without thier go ahead. So, England have nothing to stop them selling the rights to whomever they want.

There is the small matter of iRB regulation 13.2, which the RFU and PRL have signed up to!

 

[ratsapprentice]

As for tv rights, as far as ERC contracts end in 14 they have no rights to sell for the unions without thier go ahead. So, England have nothing to stop them selling the rights to whomever they want.

As far as I can tell the PRL only have permission from the RFU to negotiate rights with the ERC - not anyone else.

 

[McTallshort]

Didn't the ERC sign a deal with Sky after the english and french clubs gave notice?

 

[smartcooky]

Didn't the ERC sign a deal with Sky after the english and french clubs gave notice?

Yes they did, but (according to former RFU Chairman Martyn Thomas) PRL Clubs also had a binding contract with the RFU to participate in the Heineken Cup until the end of 2016.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/heineken-cup-latest-former-rfu-5960181

As far as I can tell the PRL only have permission from the RFU to negotiate rights with the ERC - not anyone else.

Yes. That was part of the Eight Year agreement signed in 2007 that replaced the old "Long Form Agreeement"

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/november/news articles/rfuandprlsignneweightyearagreement

[TEXTAREA]The RFU and Premier Rugby Ltd ("PRL") are pleased to announce they have signed a new Agreement (the "Agreement") which will govern the professional game in England from 1 July 2008 until 30 June 2016.[/TEXTAREA]


[TEXTAREA]As part of the Agreement, PRL shall be solely responsible for negotiating the sale of their own TV, media & Sponsorship rights and giving directions to ERC in respect of England's position on the sale of the TV, media and sponsorship rights related to the European Rugby Cup and European Challenge Cup.[/TEXTAREA]

This means they could negotiate with whoever they liked as regards TV deals for the then "Guinness Premiership" (now the Aviva Premiership), but could only talk to the ERC about European Competititons.
'
They are currently in breach of this agreement.