Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[psychic duck]

This is an entertaining thread but it's quite easy (for me at least) to forget what we are arguing about / discussing. It's sometimes useful to remind myself what the point of rugby admin should be before I can say that structure x is better than structure y. To me, off the top of my head, the objectives are:
1. to get as many people as possible playing rugby and enjoying playing it
2. to get as many people as possible watching rugby and enjoying watching it.

Rugby being a sport in which mismatches are more likely to make dull games for players and spectators, I don't really care if there are intended or unintended mechanisms which handicap the best teams and give the less strong teams more of a chance.

I have favourite teams but I'd give up watching them if I *knew* they were going to win a match against every pretty good team or if I *knew* they were going to get 5 points against every weaker team.

So I personally don't care if:
- weaker clubs get more of the dosh than their current ability might "deserve"
- stronger clubs lose more players to internationals and rest
- stronger clubs feel they have to play squad players slightly more often than their current merit deserves to keep them interested in staying with that club until they mature.

I don't expect everyone to agree with the above so I do expect people to have different views on structures:
- some people are more fanatical than others
- some people care more about their club than their country and vice versa.

But it's a shame when some fans and clubs appear endlessly to seek to change the structures until they find a mechanism whereby their team is likely to win the HC - irrespective of the impact on the general good of the game.

Obviously there are self-seekers in any organisation, but I do think it's more likely that the unions will have the above objectives in mind when they seek changes. I have little faith in club owners having the same objectives in mind. In the same way, it's more comfortable to send your kids to state schools or schools owned by charitable trusts; if you send them to privately-owned schools, there's always a ****le that things you don't agree with are being done to line the owners' pockets - even if the owners are moderate capitalists. Some of these EPL clubs are really well run by people whose hearts seem to be in the right place. Others appear to be self-seeking. They also appear to have hired a CEO who has been told to look only short-term and ignore the general good.

This is unbelievably deluded. I bet you're one of those only watch international types that are so prominent in Wales these days.

You might not care if a side that is **** (ie Zebre) and contributes little if anything to the competition gets entitled to a disproportionate amount of the profit generated by others. But the teams that do contribute said quality and money to the product are just a little but ticked off about this.

Also you might not care that the Ospreys get crippled for a few fixtures a year through internationals in the Pro12, but the people involved in running the club and need to make some money out of the business won't be happy about it when a side that contributes bugger all to Wales or the league like the Dragons gets the same funding.

Easy not to care when you're not involved in watching or part of a team. I wonder whether you would "not care" if a member of the company you worked for got paid as much as you despite being the ****test employee in the company and contributing little to it?

Another anyone on this thread who mentions "it's just so teams can get their sides to win" is talking out their arse. This has been going on years, English threatened to pull out along with the French the year they had 3 of the 4 semi finalists in 2007. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/2310275/Premiership-clubs-join-Heineken-Cup-boycott.html

Just on this point here, Leinster always start slower than anyone else in the league. It has been part of our season for a few years now. (Joe Schmidt got awful abuse in 2010 due to a slow start) I'm not saying your point is invalid but Leinster are a bad example, compare us to Munster this year, 2nd after 5 and Ulster last year, top after 5 and they have similar restrictions to Leinster. Leinster will, as they always do, shoot up the table between now and Christmas.

Funny how their "slow starts" also seem to coincide with when a large amount of their Irish contingent is being rested early season. Leinster would have dealt with Glasgow and Ospreys at home at full strength.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Debatable. We only squeezed past Glasgow in the semi final last season (a game we should have lost in truth) and the Ospreys have done us too many times to bare thinking about at this stage.

 

[psychic duck]

Debatable. We only squeezed past Glasgow in the semi final last season (a game we should have lost in truth) and the Ospreys have done us too many times to bare thinking about at this stage.

After seeing the respective performances of Glasgow and Ospreys last weekend do you really think that Leinster wouldn't have got the win if it was a Heineken Cup game?

Ospreys only beat Leinster in 2012 because they ran out of gas in the final 20 after a series of tough European games such as the epic intense contest with Clermont. Ospreys are now an inferior side to what they were then as well.

 

[Feicarsinn]

After seeing the respective performances of Glasgow and Ospreys last weekend do you really think that Leinster wouldn't have got the win if it was a Heineken Cup game?

Ospreys only beat Leinster in 2012 because they ran out of gas in the final 20 after a series of tough European games such as the epic intense contest with Clermont. Ospreys are now an inferior side to what they were then as well.

Yes, I could easily see both beating us. They've both proven in the past that they're capable of getting past us when we're close to full strength. Good teams.

 

[dullonien]

This is unbelievably deluded. I bet you're one of those only watch international types that are so prominent in Wales these days.

You might not care if a side that is **** (ie Zebre) and contributes little if anything to the competition gets entitled to a disproportionate amount of the profit generated by others. But the teams that do contribute said quality and money to the product are just a little but ticked off about this.

Also you might not care that the Ospreys get crippled for a few fixtures a year through internationals in the Pro12, but the people involved in running the club and need to make some money out of the business won't be happy about it when a side that contributes bugger all to Wales or the league like the Dragons gets the same funding.

Easy not to care when you're not involved in watching or part of a team. I wonder whether you would "not care" if a member of the company you worked for got paid as much as you despite being the ****test employee in the company and contributing little to it?

But where does it end Duck?

You obviously believe that the Ospreys deserve more money from the WRU than the Dragons because they provide a larger number of players to the national team. Initially that seems fair, but looking at the long term, how does that help the Dragons improve which would also help the national team improve?

In order to strengthen Welsh rugby we should strengthen the weakest parts, and at regional rugby that's the Dragons. Cutting their funding will do the complete opposite.

This is similar to European rugby. Want the HC to improve, try to get all sides to improve in quality, not give the already rich successful clubs a bigger slice of the financial cake making them even richer and even stronger, whilst the already poor clubs lose even more of their players and become even weaker.

 

[McTallshort]

And after 15 years of HEC which weak teams have improved?

 

[Feicarsinn]

And after 15 years of HEC which weak teams have improved?

Treviso, Glasgow, Connacht. Leinster have gone from being one of the laughing stocks of Europe to the second most successful side in the history of the competition.

 

[McTallshort]

How have Treviso and Connought improved? Nither has every got out of the group stage of the HEC

 

[dullonien]

How have Treviso and Connought improved? Nither has every got out of the group stage of the HEC

If you can't see that Treviso have improved from being guaranteed 5 points for every other side in their pool to being competitive against most then I don't know.

 

[McTallshort]

Would they have improved any less in the Amlin

 

[Draggs]

Actually this statement is what's a crock of shiite.

If Leinster had access to their Heineken Cup team all season in the Schmidt years then they would have won the league by a considerably larger and more dominant margin with defeats to Connacht out the window. Treviso would also probably be a top 6 side without the FIR handicapping them in the international periods.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that the gap between the international providers and the non international providers would grow considerably. Dragons surprisingly good record against the Ospreys is largely down to the strange amount of times that the latter has been under strength. When the Dragons won at the Liberty in 2010 the Ospreys had gems like Gareth Owen, Jamie Nutbrown, Sonny Parker, Dai Flanagan and Tom Smith all in the starting lineup. The Ospreys may still always finish ahead end of season as they produce decent players (unlike the Dragons) but ambush type matches as such would be eradicated and the gap widened.

It is palpable that resting players changes the league. Scarlets and Glasgow have both in recent times got league places beyond their actual ability. Edinburgh got 2nd in the league and Dragons got 7th in 2010 I think as well. In both cases down to the teams they played.

That so many games are watered down leads to the need to take these positions by a pinch of salt, teams are judged on European performance. Glasgow are undefeated in the Pro12 yet got a tonking with 50 points put on them in Toulon, would the same happen to 5th place Leinster with only 2 wins? Certainly not. In fact I just checked their team that lost to Glasgow, only half of it started the Heineken Cup game, where a team that could have certainly beaten Glasgow was picked.

Quite a few of our wins were against full strength Ospreys teams, so that isn't wholly accurate.
I wholeheartedly agree that teams producing international players should be rewarded, but not by cutting funding of others. A block sum to all teams and then a certain amount for every player called up would be fair, or at least that start of some plan. Dual contracts have been tossed around, which could also reward teams for internationals.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Would they have improved any less in the Amlin

Quite frankly, yes. One need only look at Connacht. They're in a far stronger position since they got into the Heineken Cup. Crowds are up, there are far more home crown players coming through, they are retaining more of their bigger names, they're attracting a higher calibre of player and their squad looks a lot stronger. That wouldn't have happened had they continued in the Amlin.

 

[psychic duck]

But where does it end Duck?

You obviously believe that the Ospreys deserve more money from the WRU than the Dragons because they provide a larger number of players to the national team. Initially that seems fair, but looking at the long term, how does that help the Dragons improve which would also help the national team improve?

In order to strengthen Welsh rugby we should strengthen the weakest parts, and at regional rugby that's the Dragons. Cutting their funding will do the complete opposite.

This is similar to European rugby. Want the HC to improve, try to get all sides to improve in quality, not give the already rich successful clubs a bigger slice of the financial cake making them even richer and even stronger, whilst the already poor clubs lose even more of their players and become even weaker.

The Ospreys need to run as a business as well. They should be compensated better for the large amount of Wales players supplied. The Dragons do bugger all for the national team and harm the 3 providers chances. Ireland have managed to get a huge advantage over Welsh regions by treating Connacht (who traditionally provide less internationals than them) like runts. The Ospreys should get Faletau the same way Leinster can ruthlessly obtain any decent Connacht player like McCarthy or Cronin for instance. Putting more money into 3 teams would also help them be more successful and more likely to keep their own players as well.

The Dragons taking undeserved money the other 3 regions for nothing gained themselves is one of the biggest problems with the WRU.

I don't buy your theory at all, it's a business, the WRU looking at results would be far wiser to invest more funds in the Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets who had 10, 9 and 9 players in the 6N squad respectively (along with French based players produced by them) whilst the Dragons who had an pathetic 2 despite getting equal funding.

If they want more funding they should have to earn it. The current arrangement is a **** take for all the Team Wales providers. If there were 4 people sent out to collect berries and 3 brought back a 100 and the other brought back 10, would you think it fair that they were all given the same funding? The success of the Ospreys is hurt by Wales taking away players yet the don't get rewarded for producing.

And by the way, the Heineken Cup would improve much in quality with the 20 team format the French and English put forward. It's up to the Zebre to improve themselves and get up the Pro12 table. And why should they receive special treatment? If you want to help the smaller side in Zebre then why aren't you also helping all the other club sides in Europe? Any Celt/Italian that talks of "needing places to improve" is hypocritical. They won't even put forward a mere Amlin Cup place for Georgian, Russian or Romanian club sides in favour of inferior Italian clubs.

Quite a few of our wins were against full strength Ospreys teams, so that isn't wholly accurate.

The majority was against weakened Ospreys. Ambushing them was the highlight event of the Dragons season seeing as they'll never actually win anything. Sadly they have now helped afflicted the same fate on the rest of the regions now. The Ospreys will be fighting just to avoid bottom place in the pool this time, it's plausible we could have 3 bottom placed Welsh regions this season.

Yes, I could easily see both beating us. They've both proven in the past that they're capable of getting past us when we're close to full strength. Good teams.

The Heineken Cup versions haven't, which is the main priority of the teams. The Ospreys are not as good as they were in 2012 either, and are likely to get worse. They have very little of chance of repeating a draw from the Rabo in the H Cup. Glasgow's record in Europe isn't all that impressive, they were doubled pretty easily by Ulster last season. I can't imagine Leinster having too many problems with them, perhaps in the away leg maybe.

 

[McTallshort]

Quite frankly, yes. One need only look at Connacht. They're in a far stronger position since they got into the Heineken Cup. Crowds are up, there are far more home crown players coming through, they are retaining more of their bigger names, they're attracting a higher calibre of player and their squad looks a lot stronger. That wouldn't have happened had they continued in the Amlin.

In that case let's give more teams the chance to play in it as surely teams in spain and rumania should be given the same chances to develop as sides in Rbo

 

[Draggs]

Yeah, it was an As long as we beat the English event for us. It seems like the supporters, players, and staff are finally getting more ambition. If we can keep a hold of our players for once we might be able to develop an acceptable squad. As I said! something fair must be developed! but just cutting the Dragons is more harmful long term. Look at Scotland, they have two teams and are scouring the world for anyone who is Scottish qualified.

 

[smartcooky]

I bet you're one of those only watch international types that are so prominent in Wales these days.

I'll have some of that.

I go to Tasman games occasionally, because its cheap and its only a five minute walk to Trafalgar Park. As for the Crusaders, well I follow them, and I watch a few games on TV, but I haven't been to a game in Christchurch in years. I went to a few of them in Nelson when they were here during the earthquake problems, but if they had not been on my doorstep, I would not have bothered.

The only thing I really care about in rugby, is the All Blacks. In my lifetime, I have probably been to more All Black tests than provincial games. Super Rugbv could disappear tomorrow, and I would not shed one bloody tear, so long as what they replaced it with was effective in preparing our best players to play for the All Blacks, and geared towards making them as good as they can be, and at the top of the world game.

Nothing else really matters to me from a rugby perspective; as far as domestic rugby is concerned, I don't really give a monkeys. I'd sooner go over to Rugby Park and stroll up and down the sideline when Riwaka are playing than go to an ITM Cup or Super Rugby match.

 

[smartcooky]

How have Treviso and Connought improved? Nither has every got out of the group stage of the HEC

Well so what? Neither have Leeds or Exeter!

Neither Worcester or Bristol even made it into the HC at all

 

[St George]

But the point here is that there ARE only four Irish Teams, because there are only four Irish provinces, there ARE only four Welsh teams because there are four Welsh regions. By default, they are the best teams in those countries. If an Irish or Welsh team finished bottom of the Pro 12, and was relegated, who would be the team to replace them when there isn't one. There is no tier below the Pro 12 from which to promote a team. In fact it is meritorious indeed that teams like Leinster and Munster, who have performed well and won the HC on several occasions, have never been near the bottom despite that fact that they supposedly rest players because there is not relegation.

The "fight for relegation story" being put up by the PRL is a crock of shiite. I would argue that if the Pro 12 teams didn't rest players regularly, then tables will still end up looking much the same. In the last eight years, Leinster have finished 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st & 2nd; while Munster have finished 4th, 4th, 6th, 3rd, 1st, 4th, 3rd, & 6th. These are all qualifying position despite supposedly playing weakened teams for some matches.


ETA: Oh, and people who think that PRL and LNR teams don't rest players for matches they think they can win with a weakened team, are living on Planet Fantasy. ALL teams rest players, and if they don't, then injury will do the job for them.

Thank you Cooky for helping to make my point. Because the fact is, the teams that are put forward by certain European nations into the HC are not the best as you initially said, but they are the only teams due to the way those nations have structured themselves. And so we have a European competition which has some very good teams and some fill ins. Just like the World Cup as you also stated. But do we want to see the types of games that we get in the WC where cricket scores are the norm? I for one don't. Football has a system whereby those teams which finish bottom of their qualifying criteria, (4th place in the EPL) should have to go into a playoff comp to gain access into the Champions League. It's basically weeding out the very weak teams so that the CL is as competitive as possible.
If we are to see nations with weak club teams be guaranteed entry into the HC, then why not make it into a truly representative Euro comp and have all other rugby nations enter a team? Because that would be a disaster for the weaker nations that's why. And so they have their own Euro comp which is more akin to their level. (BTW, the Franglais were originally proposing that the winner of that 3rd tier Euro comp got automatic entry into the HC. That is truly rewarding exellence on the field).
Those teams that do not make the HC are not cast aside into the wilderness, as some on here would like to think, they then enter the Amlin Cup and get a real opportunity to shine for their fans instead of getting beat up all the time.
It isnt rocket science to see that winning teams attract fans and losing teams lose fans. Its why there is an upsurge in fans after teams do well in the WC etc.

And Cooky....i think Exeter going from Championship to HC is progress, and i bet my house that their fans think the same as well. Those other teams you mention will have to improve or they will go down and another team will be given a chance to shine.
And also, i believe the Welsh are trying to establish a region to represent the north of Wales, and that it will initially play in the lower Welsh league before entering the Rabo12. I wonder what will happen though if it cannot beat the lower Welsh teams? Will it automatically be promoted even though it is not the best team?

 

[smartcooky]

Thank you Cooky for helping to make my point. Because the fact is, the teams that are put forward by certain European nations into the HC are not the best as you initially said, but they are the only teams due to the way those nations have structured themselves.

No, you have entirely missed the point.

They are the best teams because they contain the ALL best players. There are no other professional players in Ireland that are their equals, and playing for other teams that might replace Connacht. ALL of the professional players are either in one of the four provincial teams, or are playing for other clubs in other countries. This is a very similar setup to our Super Rugby; 150 professional players distributed among five teams. If Otago are bottom, and were to be relegated, there is no other team that could take their place, either geographically, or from a player standpoint, because there aren't another 30 players to make up a new team. Can't you see thuis

This is totally unlike England, where professional players are distributed among the 12 clubs in the Aviva Premsiership and the 10 clubs in the RFU Championship, but when it comes to Heineken Cup time, only half of England's Premier players are involved (whereas for NZ, ALL of our Premier players are involved in Super Rugby.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

No, you have entirely missed the point.

They are the best teams because they contain the ALL best players. There are no other professional players in Ireland that are their equals, and playing for other teams that might replace Connacht. ALL of the professional players are either in one of the four provincial teams, or are playing for other clubs in other countries. This is a very similar setup to our Super Rugby; 150 professional players distributed among five teams. If Otago are bottom, and were to be relegated, there is no other team that could take their place, either geographically, or from a player standpoint, because there aren't another 30 players to make up a new team. Can't you see thuis

This is totally unlike England, where professional players are distributed among the 12 clubs in the Aviva Premsiership and the 10 clubs in the RFU Championship, but when it comes to Heineken Cup time, only half of England's Premier players are involved (whereas for NZ, ALL of our Premier players are involved in Super Rugby.

Well, the real issue is the difference between club rugby (which is England and France) and provincial/franchise systems which are used in Wales, Ireland, Italy, South Africa and New Zealand. SA for example, is a country that has club rugby (I.e. College Rovers, Despatch, Sishen), provincial rugby (Griquas, Pumas, Natal Sharks, Western Province) and franchise rugby (Stormers, Bulls, Sharks).

The 3 levels are not comparable but in Ireland and Wales, the provincial teams are the same as the HEC teams. Same organization, same players, same coaching staff. England, France and South Africa have much more depth in rugby which makes club rugby possible.

It's unfair to compare the two systems but it's vital to those smaller unions to stay in the competitions to have a chance to develop.