Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[dullonien]

I would draw the line with Aironi being in the competition, but I would not agree with the FIR no longer receiving the funding they would get if Aironi were in the competition.

They need the mullah to develop the game... indeed, they probably need it more than any other tier 1 union.

Yup, I agree there as well.

A comparison could be made with British and Irish Athletics. If the powers that be had a similar view to duck, then after a long period of underachievement in major competitions such as the Olympics, it would have been better to cut funding and give it to more successful sporting bodies. However money was ploughed into athletics nationwide, and the benefits were seen at the 2012 Olympics.

Without money, there's little chance that struggling sides can improve. Even the big success story of Exeter was bankrolled by someone. If they didn't have the money to make quality signings, or retain those they had developed then they'd probably still be in the first division, or would have returned there soon after gaining promotion.

 

[McTallshort]

Its like the school sports day when everyone gets the same prize so the fat kids dont feel like losers....

 

[Feicarsinn]

Its like the school sports day when everyone gets the same prize so the fat kids dont feel like losers....

A better comparison would be a weight loss competition where only the winners of the first round were allowed exercise from that point on, and the loser get bashed for staying morbidly obese 10 rounds down the line.I'd watch it.

 

[coolbawn]

No, it's like the school at which not *all* resources go to the 1st team; the 2nd team etc get plenty so late improvers can make it up to the 1st team on merit.

 

[McTallshort]

A better comparison would be a weight loss competition where only the winners of the first round were allowed exercise from that point on, and the loser get bashed for staying morbidly obese 10 rounds down the line.I'd watch it.

Yes but as fat people tend to be lazy they might actually munch on cream cakes just so they dont have to exercise anymore...

 

[McTallshort]

No, it's like the school at which not *all* resources go to the 1st team; the 2nd team etc get plenty so late improvers can make it up to the 1st team on merit.

yeah and I wonder how many games that school would win...

 

[coolbawn]

So, Tallshort, you think that all rugby players mature at the same rate ?! OK, that's a different debate but you seem to think that there's only one way and one pace for clubs to progress and as your club happened to progress to the top amongst the quickest (which it did), then everything should be done to rugby structures to prevent other clubs from threatening your club. I actually think that Leicester is more enlightened than some EPL clubs, judging by the resources put into your academy - in spite of your high overseas quota compared with Quins - but who knows.

 

[erwanseb]

But that is exactly what we do.

Chiefs and Highlanders get the same funding from NZRU. So do the Crusaders, the Blues and the Hurricanes. They then have to raise additional funding through their own sponsorships. That is how a "Union Owned Franchise System" works.

In "Private ownership systems" like they have in England, there is a gradual bias in the money and success toward a small number of teams that get richer and better, and the whole competition itself becomes a borefest (not necessarily in the individual games though) with a mainly predictable table. The Football EPL is the ultimate expression of what will happen with the AP of this trend is allowed to continue. A rich businessman can come along and buy himself a Premiership simply by pouring money into whichever club he chooses to back. Be honest, what chance do Palace, Fulham, West Ham or Villa have of ever winning the Premier League ***le? No chance at all!

The AP salary cap is no protection either against this, as they are so easy to subvert. Fake jobs and free cars for the Wags/Dependants, unlimited use of high-end "company" cars, hidden retirement packages, guaranteed jobs after rugby, etc, are just a few.

Privatisation of domestic clubs has been bad for rugby in England and France. The RFU and FFR missed the boat back in 1995, and now they are paying for it, big-time! Every time I see, hear and read about the constant political arguments, back-biting, arrogant posturing and inane bickering that goes on in the European domestic game, I thank Christ that the late Jock Hobbs (God rest his soul) had the foresight to see what it would lead to, and the vision to do what was necessary to save us from that mess.

And what about the ARU on the verge of bankruptcy having lost 19m over the past 2 years despite a lucrative Lions tour ?
Clubs will come and go, Colommiers a HC finalist is now an amateur club, some have gone bankrupt but some like Toulon or Racing were not even on the map 5 years ago (they were famous clubs in amateur era though)
The club system spread the risk among many entities outside of a centralized union and will/can prosper regardless of the national team performance.
In a union governed system like Australia, a couple of years with poor results place the whole system in jeopardy, rugby would be dead in NZ without a performing all black side.
There are more than one thousand player with a full professional contract in france, this employment market has driven rugby growth in multiple of countries. Argentina, Italy, Georgia, PI times have improved drastically because of this huge employment opening. The top 14, through its employment market has done more for rugby development than all the Unions and IRB combined.

Argentina inclusion in the tri nations, deserved and great for the sport, is a mixed blessing as the number of argentinian players in the top 14 has dropped significantly since as clubs cannot afford employing a player unavailable for nearly half the season. This drop in employment has not been compensated by the utterly selfish SANZAR unions and their super XV franchises.
What was a great idea could turn nasty in the future without harmonization of international schedule.

Clubs in that regard are non discriminatory and will employ you solely based on your performance which is why they are doing a better job than the unions at developing the sport.

 

[McTallshort]

Coolbawn this is how I see it, this is competitive pro sport not social care. The scenario you quote above reminds me of a debate a group of rugby mates I was part of had some years ago. We were all part of a "flexible 15" if the clubs games were at home and the weather was nice and everyone could be arsed to turn up our gang tended to play in the thirds, long away games we moved to the seconds and on rear occasions when the away game was on a 6 nations weekend then one of our number might bench for the firsts. Kit within the club was distributed as such: first team got new shirts every year and a nice shiny track suit, seconds the previous years first team kit and the thirds got the seconds cast offs. This caused some resentment among some of our mob who believed they paid the same subs and should be treated the same as everyone else but they missed a big point...if you make the effort, do the extra training lay off the beer on a friday and make it to regular first team rugby then you should be rewarded, if you dont take it all that seriously and have a few beers on friday then you shouldnt really complain about third hand kit.

Pro rugby has been with us nearly 20 years teams like Leicester didnt start with big crowds and a nice shiny ground and have had to get in investment, employ the right people, market the business, build a solid academy and generally graft like hell to get to a profit making business model that we are lucky to have today. Lots of other teams have managed it and many more have failed...thats life some achieve the dream some dont. Compare Exeter to Connought, both started with roughly the same crowds,facilities etc but one has managed to move up the English rugby system by employing the same principles Tigers did in the early days and is now playing HEC on merit the other is still propped up by its union and despite years of HEC rugby and all the money it brings will only ever be that weak Irish region. Why should Connought be rewarded for being ordinary? Development has to come in some large part from the region/club/Franchise, people cannot expect constant handouts if they refuse to help themselves. This isnt Communist Russia

 

[Amiga500]

yeah and I wonder how many games that school would win...

In 1st year, maybe not too many.

In 5th or 7th year? They'd have a significantly stronger squad than most and probably be beating most.


Yet again, you show up the fact your that shortsighted you cannot see beyond the end of your nose! When are you going to learn to stop and think about the long term view before committing your thoughts to the board?

 

[erwanseb]

Maybe it is worth mentioning that a club system does not maximize the national team performance and that in that regards union system tend to perform better, but that is not the end of it.
Former East Germany sport system was the ultimate performer independently from doping practice, what for ?

 

[j'nuh]

What absolute rubbish. There is a lot that is wrong with domestic sport in England, but finances isnt one of them. When you talk about the EPL, you are talking from a position of having no connection or history of the system or people that support it. You even confess to having no real interest in your own top domestic rugby leagues:

Of course there will be some fluke/underdog victories here and there. That's what you get when there are 380 games per season in the Premier League (compared to the Aviva Premiership's 135).

Doesn't change from the fact that there are 3 teams competing for a ***le any given year, and the top 4 remain the same for a better part of a decade each time, and it is mostly based on money.

No way would I like rugby to emulate this.

 

[coolbawn]

I understand and agree with quite a lot of that, Tallshort, which is partly why I respect Leicester. Actually Connacht has only been in the HC 3 times, I think, and only because of Leinster (maybe once because of Munster ?) so it's not always a great example for people to use. I won't complain if the back-door qualification for the next club from the HC/Amlin-winning countries goes - as long as it goes if the club is French or English too, of course ! That rule was probably designed by the Franglais clubs to boost their participation and it may yet, but it clearly irritates some clubs that it back-fired on them. Get the Amlin stronger by having a couple more Rabo clubs instead of Romanians etc (but give them a good 3rd-tier tournament to do well in). But I'd hope that the IRFU wouldn't reduce funding to Connacht at all because a difference between sport, capitalism and Communist Russia is that sport - esp rugby - needs two roughly equal teams to make the contest interesting. As Amiga etc have touched upon, there are interesting signs of Connacht under-age teams improving massively in the last 12 months.

 

[McTallshort]

In 1st year, maybe not too many.

In 5th or 7th year? They'd have a significantly stronger squad than most and probably be beating most.


Yet again, you show up the fact your that shortsighted you cannot see beyond the end of your nose! When are you going to learn to stop and think about the long term view before committing your thoughts to the board?

Long term? OK in the 90s the everyones the same policy in school sport resulted in a dire history in English sport with athletics and other sponsorship reliant sport struggling to even field teams, when sport england came along they binned the lefty PC stance on sport and invested in the elite top athletes, cyclists etc. As a result english sports became more competitive, more sponsership came and the sports grew.

as for putting my thoughts on a public forum, are you so self righteous and up yourself that you only except people are allowed to think like you? good dictator you would make.

 

[Amiga500]

Compare Exeter to Connought, both started with roughly the same crowds,facilities etc but one has managed to move up the English rugby system by employing the same principles Tigers did in the early days and is now playing HEC on merit the other is still propped up by its union and despite years of HEC rugby and all the money it brings will only ever be that weak Irish region. Why should Connought be rewarded for being ordinary? Development has to come in some large part from the region/club/Franchise, people cannot expect constant handouts if they refuse to help themselves. This isnt Communist Russia

If you had any idea what you were talking about, it would help.

Connacht (note spelling) have had significantly less IRFU funding relative to the other 3 provinces for a sustained period of time. That is both in less direct funding and not having their wage bill heavily subsidised by central contracts

Therefore, it is only natural that they trail the other 3 provinces. Even then, there was a time in the mid 2000s when they were threatening to overtake us as the 3rd province!

With the financial imbalance lessened somewhat, Connacht are improving. Fast. Season ticket sales are continually climbing as are attendances. Rome wasn't built in a day, but they are continually going in the right direction.


Now, to pre-empt the question as to why the provinces receive funding from the IRFU - the provinces are the IRFU, they have financial obligations (such as quotas of ticket sales for international games they have to meet) to the IRFU which are reciprocated with central funding from the IRFU.


Need I point out that "ordinary" Connacht (note spelling again) beat the then English champions Harlequins not so long ago and that they damn near beat Saracens at the weekend?

 

[Amiga500]

Long term? OK in the 90s the everyones the same policy in school sport resulted in a dire history in English sport with athletics and other sponsorship reliant sport struggling to even field teams, when sport england came along they binned the lefty PC stance on sport and invested in the elite top athletes, cyclists etc.

As a result english sports became more competitive, more sponsership came and the sports grew.

Is that the same sport England that has received additional monies to the tune of £3 billion + from the national lottery?

Money that wasn't available previously?

Way to go Tallshort. Compare apples with cement mixers.

as for putting my thoughts on a public forum, are you so self righteous and up yourself that you only except people are allowed to think like you? good dictator you would make.

When those posts are consistently not thought through - the poster may want to change their approach to posting unless they want to appear the fool.

 

[McTallshort]

No I wont go away you childish idiot, why dont you stand in the play ground with your hands over your ears shouting "not listerning"

Change my approach? you arrogant smug fool, you are behaving more like a greedy PRL chairman than either of us.

 

[Draggs]

Once again, calm down and stop the childish insults. Stick to the topic or this thread is done.

 

[Amiga500]

you are behaving more like a greedy PRL chairman than either of us.

Finally you admit they are greedy.

It feels like the rubicon has been crossed! This thread will be sorted in no time now.

 

[j'nuh]

I wonder if you believe the same thing in real life, such as the NHS etc. Those darn people paying little into the pot allowed to get the same amount out of it.

I firmly believe that there is talent emerging in Gwent, with the likes of Ieuan Jones, Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos, Jonathan Evans, Sam Parry, Matthew Screech (Blues weren't prepared to develop him), and Jason Tovey potential future Welsh internationals (okay, Tovey has been touted for a while, but he's back playing quite well).

Looking at the recent U20's squads, the breakdown is much more evenly distributed, with a healthy percentage of the players playing their trade in Gwent.

Maybe in 10 years time, it'll the Dragons who are developing the majority of Wales' international players. It's somewhat down to the luck of the draw as to the quality of the players coming through in the region. Cut the Dragons funding and you risk jeopardising the region as a whole. We've already mostly cut off the Valleys, and now you want to do something similar with Gwent? It's very difficult to reverse actions such as these.

Yes things are difficult at the moment, but jeopardising the long term in an attempt to secure some short-term success for the other regions isn't the way to fix things.

Edit. With regards to Europe. I draw the line with Aironi, because they are so far off the back that they'd be better off developing in the Amlin. But otherwise, it's important for the smaller teams to get equal revenue from the competition as the larger, richer ones, or things will quickly become even more lopsided than they are now.

In this argument, I feel that there isn't a right or wrong, but that people are looking at things from different perspectives. (Much like all politics, I guess.)

On the one hand, you seem to be supporting what is best for the collective. You want fairness between the regions, giving as much of a chance for all to develop as equals.

On the other hand, psychic duck seems to be looking at things from more of an individualist approach, believing that some regions are inherently going to be stronger, and thus need more support, than others.

I think you are both right, it's just that your priorities are different.

If we take psychic duck's approach, then the wage and player base disparity between the three other regions, and Newport, will widen. Not only would they get less money from the WRU, but they also benefit less than the other regions in terms of gate receipts, having by far the smallest crowd. The idea of developing Newport as a rugby region becomes basically impossible. As a fan, it'll be difficult to overcome the apathy of not being supported as well as the other regions.

However, if we take dullonien's approach, then resources may not be concentrated as well as they could be, a contributing factor for why the regions cannot compete.

Personally, I'm starting to feel that whatever amount the Dragons get from the WRU, dividing that by three and distributing it amongst the other regions is probably not going to make the biggest difference to competing. It would improve the other regions by a minor amount, whilst effectively destroying the Dragons.

The question for me is - how are the Dragons spending their money? I think that the Dragons need to justify what they are spending their allocation of the funding on.

Really, the ideal situation is to grow the pie rather than cut it into uneven pieces.