Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Prestwick]

Of course there will be some fluke/underdog victories here and there. That's what you get when there are 380 games per season in the Premier League (compared to the Aviva Premiership's 135).

Doesn't change from the fact that there are 3 teams competing for a ***le any given year, and the top 4 remain the same for a better part of a decade each time, and it is mostly based on money.

No way would I like rugby to emulate this.

I think its pretty disingenuous to say that the "same four teams" are in the top places every year in the Aviva Premiership.

Look at the facts, I'm a Sarries fan and last time I checked, Saracens have been serious late-comers to the "top four" party, consistently coming...in the last 6 for most the 2000s until 2009 and even then we struggled to 4th place. We came top last season but with the playoffs the reaction from the other 11 teams was a valid "big deal".

The same goes for Harlequins and even Saints. In the past decade the only team who have consistently been in the top four/five in the Premiership have been Leicester and that isn't just down to money its down more to shrewd recruitment and excellent coaching. Sale, Gloucester, London Irish and Wasps have all been in the mix at one point or another. Remember that Wasps dominated the Premiership for a few years!

In the past decade you've had five different teams win the Premiership Final: Harlequins, Leicester, Sale, Saracens and Wasps. On top of that you've had other teams compete in the play offs but didn't get to or win the final: Bath, Gloucester (who also came top in their year, would have thought you'd have known that), Irish and Saints for example.

The Aviva Premiership is competitive and dynamic. Teams come and go and reigns start and end. Its absolute crap to say that the same four teams year in, year out are the only ones with a chance to win.

EDIT: Further stats. In the past four seasons, the average gap between the top four teams has been 10-12 points. However, the gap between the next fourth and sixth has barely been four to six points. If you're fifth, you're always usually a win or a bonus point win away from a playoff place. Its super-competetive in the AP and money hasn't failed to dilute that.

Also, remember that the biggest team in terms of money behind it is Bath. Bruce Craig as almost a billion of the finest British pounds behind him and all that money has got him...how far exactly?

2009/10 - Fourth
2010/11 - Fifth
2011/12 - Eighth
2012/13 - Seventh
2013/14 - Fourth (so far)

So actually, his money has made things worse at Bath. Ditto Nigel Wray and Saracens. It took us roughly 12 years worth of hard investment to get us to where we are today and all we've got is precisely one Tetley Bitter cup and one Aviva Premiership crown. Thats it.

So don't talk to me about how apparently its soooooo easy to win everything in England if you have loads of dollar bills. Thats absolute crap.

 

[St George]

That's it in a nutshell. Edinburgh beating Munster and Llanelli beating Quins were the matches of the weekend for me. I love it when the underdog wins. Even Glasgow's amazing fightback was entertaining.

A European cup without the likes of Exeter, Treviso, Connaught and Edinburgh derailing a super-club's ***le ambitions will be a greyer place. The knock on effect on Italy's development the international game would turn test match rugby into a duller spectacle too. Italy have beaten France and Ireland over the last two years. I believe wins like that would not be possible without exposure to the best club competition on the planet. Don't take Europe away from them. Rugby will be the loser.

I disagree, Smartcooky has already pointed out that many of Englands players don't actually get to play in the HC and they aren't doing too badly. And i wish people would stop saying that the likes of the weaker Rabo12 teams will miss out on Europe. It's a complete distortion of what will happen. And to put it into even better perspective....what the hell is the week-in week-out games in the Rabo12 if they aren't Euro games? Every game (except at national level) is a European game, which is far more than what the Franglais play. Doh.

 

[Tony Manx]

Time for das and her swinging ovaries.................................!!

 

[Amiga500]

Again irrelevant to a reply i have posted to someone else's post. You're very good at that.

Without second guess j'nuh, for me money would be quite a strong reason.


Why would I (as a neutral) want to watch a league (like the premiership) where jumped up nobodies like Chelsea and Man City go from mediocrity one minute to domination the next based purely on billionaire backers?

Why would I (as a supporter) want any team to gain an advantage over mine due to completely external and non sporting forces?

Why would I (as a supporter) want my club to sacrifice its long term stability due to the excesses of a rich backer (or in the case of your Leeds Utd, an idiotic chairman)?

 

[Packman]

I disagree, Smartcooky has already pointed out that many of Englands players don't actually get to play in the HC and they aren't doing too badly. And i wish people would stop saying that the likes of the weaker Rabo12 teams will miss out on Europe. It's a complete distortion of what will happen. And to put it into even better perspective....what the hell is the week-in week-out games in the Rabo12 if they aren't Euro games? Every game (except at national level) is a European game, which is far more than what the Franglais play. Doh.

To be blunt, unless your club is playing in the Amlin, nobody gives a damn about it until the euro cup sides drop down for the Semis. and even then, last season was a bit like dropping piranhas in a gold fish tank.

The pools stages are woeful. Playing Bucharesti is not going to do the Scots or the Italians any favours come the Six Nations, is it. That's what we're talking about when we talk about Scotland and Italy missing out on Europe.

The Amlin and the Rabo 12 ain't the euro-cup. Never in a million years. The IRB, Celtic Unions and clubs, Italians, FFR. Proud Englishmen like me who put the international game first because its how people in Plymouth and cities like Plymouth get into rugby in the first place. We're not going to let PRL get away with this for the sake of making themselves filthy rich from a TV deal that'll go bust if they can't tempt the rest of Europe to get into bed with them. Things haven't really changed for months. if the BT withdraw their euro money and the IRB and FFR refuse to recognise the Anglo - french competition then what exactly has PRL and LNR got??? They've gone out on a limb. they will be reeled back in so long as organisations like the SRU and RFU man up. if they the RFU continue to sit on the fence then PRL won't win, they just bigger mess of this sport and the rebuild will take longer.

 

[Prestwick]

Time for das and her swinging ovaries.................................!!

Rage.... Subsiding...before.... I...get.... smacked..... Down..... By..... Das....

 

[Peat]

Prestwick, without wishing to put words in j'nuh's mouth, I think he was describing the situation in the EPL, not the AP, and expressing a desire that rugby never went there.

I disagree with you as to how well our clubs look after players. Look at Leicester - Cockerill might be giving it verbals about how England/Lions played Youngs/Youngs&Tuilagi when not properly fit - have they given Flood genuinely long enough to recover after two fairly close together concussions? Did he rest Youngs properly after the knee injury at the World Cup? How on earth has Dan Cole played so many minutes over the last season? Look at Sarries - Will Fraser comes back six weeks ahead of schedule and promptly gets injured again. Connected? I don't know. There's a lot of other examples of players where the clubs seems to be taking some liberties with their well-being, with the worst being the rumours that London Irish were telling players to go to the NHS last season.

Not that unions are much better. England did play Youngs with a dodgy knee, one of Scotland's players was complaining in the press about how poorly he was managed in his career, and there are are some dark mutterings on the Ulster forum about how the IRFU's conduct over the timing of Ferris' surgeries. I think we'll always see rugby teams take chances - victory is needed and the pain barrier is just one more to be broken.

Also, the conduct of many English clubs towards their long term injured has to be applauded. They're certainly not villains. I just don't think they're saints either. And really, that goes for all rugby managers.

 

[Tony Manx]

Toulon to miss the next European Cup competition......Boudjellal throwing his toys out of the pram and saying that Tulon will not play in the new competition in protest of the decision by LNR that 55% of the squad must be "French".....French in this context meaning products of french teams and academies, Kopak players etc etc etc!!

 

[Amiga500]

http://www.rugby365.fr/infos-clubs/...e-rct-jouera-h-cup-en-2014-2015-1069200.shtml

Which demonstrates exactly why the clubs and club chairmen cannot be trusted to always act in the interests of the game.


What happens if 3 or 4 clubs either side of the channel decide, I don't like this salary cap. We want it abolished or else we're off to form a new league with the other rich bunch the far side of the channel.

 

[smartcooky]

Toulon to miss the next European Cup competition......Boudjellal throwing his toys out of the pram and saying that Tulon will not play in the new competition in protest of the decision by LNR that 55% of the squad must be "French".....French in this context meaning products of french teams and academies, Kopak players etc etc etc!!

Apparently, they have said they will play in the Heineken Cup next year...

http://www.thescore.ie/toulon-heineken-cup-1134478-Oct2013/

... so they must have some inkling that it will go ahead as planned

Looks to me like one side is just beginning to flinch. All it will take is for one or two more Top 14 Clubs to go the same way, and the Rugby Champions Cup will be over before anyone even sees what the trophy looks like.

 

[Amiga500]

Looks to me like one side is just beginning to flinch. All it will take is for one or two more Top 14 Clubs to go the same way, and the Rugby Champions Cup will be over before anyone even sees what the trophy looks like.

Lemme see.... what teams are loaded with non-nationals... Clermont? Metro?

All it will take is for one or two more Top 14 Clubs to go the same way, and the Rugby Champions Cup will be over before anyone even sees what the trophy looks like.

Its what the fans want.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

So we've got the IRFU, SRU, FFR, FIR, WRU and Toulon in one corner and PRL plus most of LNR in the other corner with the RFU and Welsh clubs sitting on the fence. If Toulon have broken rank, how long before other moneybags teams like Racing Metro and ASM do likewise?

 

[Tony Manx]

So we've got the IRFU, SRU, FFR, FIR, WRU and Toulon in one corner and PRL plus most of LNR in the other corner with the RFU and Welsh clubs sitting on the fence. If Toulon have broken rank, how long before other moneybags teams like Racing Metro and ASM do likewise?

Not being one to pour cold water.......I would have to advise caution about what Boudjellal says from time to time.....he is as likely to take his toys back into his pram as throw them out!!

 

[Peat]

While I'd love to see a genuine European competition preserved by nearly any means necessary, I can't exactly welcome French clubs digging away at attempts to keep it a vaguely French league either.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Not being one to pour cold water.......I would have to advise caution about what Boudjellal says from time to time.....he is as likely to take his toys back into his pram as throw them out!!

I agree with you, their owner is a basket case and it's a negotiating position to get Toulon a better deal from LNR. His comments do however hint at a split in the united front which the French clubs were presenting. LNR/PRL were clearly trying to divide and conquer the Pro 12 clubs. Now it appears as though the Pro 12 and Unions can do the same to the RCC teams.

 

[Tony Manx]

His comments do however hint at a split in the united front which the French clubs were presenting..

I would wait for a more "sensible" owner/chairman to come out on that one to be honest...but if it means the H Cup remains, with Sky coverage rather than BT, I will be happy!!

 

[j'nuh]

I think its pretty disingenuous to say that the "same four teams" are in the top places every year in the Aviva Premiership.

Look at the facts, I'm a Sarries fan and last time I checked, Saracens have been serious late-comers to the "top four" party, consistently coming...in the last 6 for most the 2000s until 2009 and even then we struggled to 4th place. We came top last season but with the playoffs the reaction from the other 11 teams was a valid "big deal".

The same goes for Harlequins and even Saints. In the past decade the only team who have consistently been in the top four/five in the Premiership have been Leicester and that isn't just down to money its down more to shrewd recruitment and excellent coaching. Sale, Gloucester, London Irish and Wasps have all been in the mix at one point or another. Remember that Wasps dominated the Premiership for a few years!

In the past decade you've had five different teams win the Premiership Final: Harlequins, Leicester, Sale, Saracens and Wasps. On top of that you've had other teams compete in the play offs but didn't get to or win the final: Bath, Gloucester (who also came top in their year, would have thought you'd have known that), Irish and Saints for example.

The Aviva Premiership is competitive and dynamic. Teams come and go and reigns start and end. Its absolute crap to say that the same four teams year in, year out are the only ones with a chance to win.

EDIT: Further stats. In the past four seasons, the average gap between the top four teams has been 10-12 points. However, the gap between the next fourth and sixth has barely been four to six points. If you're fifth, you're always usually a win or a bonus point win away from a playoff place. Its super-competetive in the AP and money hasn't failed to dilute that.

Also, remember that the biggest team in terms of money behind it is Bath. Bruce Craig as almost a billion of the finest British pounds behind him and all that money has got him...how far exactly?

2009/10 - Fourth
2010/11 - Fifth
2011/12 - Eighth
2012/13 - Seventh
2013/14 - Fourth (so far)

So actually, his money has made things worse at Bath. Ditto Nigel Wray and Saracens. It took us roughly 12 years worth of hard investment to get us to where we are today and all we've got is precisely one Tetley Bitter cup and one Aviva Premiership crown. Thats it.

So don't talk to me about how apparently its soooooo easy to win everything in England if you have loads of dollar bills. Thats absolute crap.

I was talking about the English Premier League. Hence the "No way would I like rugby to emulate this".

But in regards to teams coming and going and established reigns:

If you think reigns start and end due to any other reason than money, then you're wrong.

There's a clear disparity in general in the league, between teams paying near/up to the cap: Tigers, Saints, Sarries, Glos, Bath, perhaps Exe, and teams that are clearly not: Wasps, Sale, Wuss, Falcons, Irish.

Wasps used to be near the top because they spent a lot of money to keep up at the top. They've run themselves into millions of debt and have come close to administration and relegation as a result. It wasn't a healthy business practise to follow.

Sarries joined the top 4 purely because they started having the money to invest in the team.

Glos did really well for years and then started hitting mid-table because they didn't have the benefactors to keep up with the money being spent by the top teams when the salary cap was doubled and the recession hit. It was only last year when Glos started paying up to the salary cap again, simply through economic recovery and growth of the club. Expect results to start materialising when Davies has had the chance to put his foot down on the whole squad and get rid of some dead wood.

Same with Bath. They are competing now because they finally had a chance to get rid of a lot of dead wood. But ultimately, they wouldn't be anywhere near if they couldn't pay up to the cap.

Are you really under an impression that Irish and Wuss can get to the top of the table, when they don't have the money to tie their players down? And that their lack of success will give them any chance of growing their crowds, or setting up a regular position in the lucrative European market? There's only one way for them really: spend more. And they cannot do that without benefactors.

There are still a few clubs in the Premiership that can challenge without wealthy benefactors. But I'm not sure how long this will last. Aggressive plans to increase the salary cap will make these teams fall behind and make the league into a three-tier one.

Everything revolves around money in the Premiership...

It's not top 4 vs. the rest yet, but it's heading that way.

 

[smartcooky]

There are still a few clubs in the Premiership that can challenge without wealthy benefactors. But I'm not sure how long this will last. Aggressive plans to increase the salary cap will make these teams fall behind and make the league into a three-tier one.

Everything revolves around money in the Premiership...

It's not top 4 vs. the rest yet, but it's heading that way.

Yep. It pretty much goes like this...

Group A: Those Clubs that have the money/benefactors to spend up to the full Salary Cap will succeed. They will continue to draw larger crowds, giving them even more money, which will go into into reserves, because the Salary Cap will limit their spending on players. So, even if they have a couple of bad years, they have the reserves to see them through it. You will find that these Clubs are more likely to own their own grounds and facilities.

Group B: Those Clubs that don't have the money/benefactors to spend up to the Salary Cap will fail, or at best, finish mid table, because the quality of players they can buy is limited. Poor crowds will not help, and no reserves to get them through the bad times. These Clubs are less likely to own their own grounds.

The higher the Salary Cap goes, the more it will benefit the Clubs in group A:, and the more detrimental it will be for those in Group B:

 

[St George]

I like the way people who are anti the stance the PRL/LNR are taking, are enjoying seeing the stance by Toulon. And yet if the article Smartcooky posts is accurate, then it's suggesting the poaching of teen adult PIs to circumvent any French player quotas. And it does seem strange that posters who praise their Unions having restrictions on their Internationals playing abroad, so as to safe guard their own domestic leaagues, are against the LNR for tying to promote the development of French qualified players in their league.

I guess people are willing to jump in bed with the devil when it suits their purpose.

 

[coolbawn]

St George, I think people are really just quite pleased to be reminded that the Franglais clubs are not necessarily a united monolith. I'm hoping that Ian Ritchie is exploring that avenue and is negotiating with each club more than with PRL and LNR. I feel that some AP clubs have a lot more in common with, say, the Irish provinces (in terms of minimizing overseas players, sustaining a good academy etc) than with the extremists (ironically including Toulon of course).