Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[St George]

St George, I think people are really just quite pleased to be reminded that the Franglais clubs are not necessarily a united monolith. I'm hoping that Ian Ritchie is exploring that avenue and is negotiating with each club more than with PRL and LNR. I feel that some AP clubs have a lot more in common with, say, the Irish provinces (in terms of minimizing overseas players, sustaining a good academy etc) than with the extremists (ironically including Toulon of course).

No doubt, but the irony is indeed that the mercenary approach of Toulon is being lauded here just because it suits the required agenda.

 

[Amiga500]

I like the way people who are anti the stance the PRL/LNR are taking, are enjoying seeing the stance by Toulon.

Mixed bag.

There is a degree of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", I'll not deny that (and it is somewhat funny to see the "united front" have a chasm in the middle of it), but there are concerns:

- Is this a realistic reflection of what could happen down the line? Would the big teams grow to a point where they have no consideration for the development of the game in the nation they happen to be playing in? If this is the case, then we can be absolutely certain they would not give two sh"ts about the development of the game in other nations! [which has been a big concern since this whole charade began]

- Already, before their competition has even started, the chairmen are at odds with each other (or at least, against the group they have tasked with organising things). How could such a dysfunctional bunch of ego-maniacs (club chairmen) really run a competition without frequent fall-outs over money distribution, the fixture lists, match venues etc? To me it would have parallels with the F1 teams - who couldn't agree on the colour of sh"te - and need that 4ft poison dwarf to dictate to them.


While what Boudjellal is saying would on the face of it be that he is supporting the Heineken cup, the long-term implications of what he has said means we really cannot afford to lose the Heineken cup along with the stability, long-term viewpoint and (at least relatively) neutral union control that comes with it.

 

[Amiga500]

No doubt, but the irony is indeed that the mercenary approach of Toulon is being lauded here just because it suits the required agenda.

Can you point to one post where anyone is lauding it?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm not lauding Toulon but I think it's interesting that there's a schism in camp RCC before a ball is even kicked off.

The fact that Toulon are loaded with foreign players doesn't bother me one bit. That's an issue for French rugby. It's unfortunate that they've built their team using a chequebook but if they sign players from Irish provinces, it allows another Irish player to step up. That's how I look at it.

 

[Amiga500]

I'm not lauding Toulon but I think it's interesting that there's a schism in camp RCC before a ball is even kicked off.

The fact that Toulon are loaded with foreign players doesn't bother me one bit. That's an issue for French rugby. It's unfortunate that they've built their team using a chequebook but if they sign players from Irish provinces, it allows another Irish player to step up. That's how I look at it.

Hypothetically; what if it were Leinster (who were not a part of the IRFU for the sake of this) that were loaded with foreign players?

 

[coolbawn]

"Hypothetically; what if it were Leinster (who were not a part of the IRFU for the sake of this) that were loaded with foreign players?" Amiga.

Then I wouldn't support Leinster nearly as much. I suspect I think along the lines of snoopy snoopy dog dog. If you follow players from their youth (say in Leinster), it's fun to see them progress. They can't all stay in the Leinster 1st team squad, so the next best thing is to see them thrive elsewhere. There are probably 15 Irish guys in Franglais match day squads, which is significant in terms of Irish pro players playing in match day squads. I imagine that many die-hard Tigers supporters also enjoy following their ex-Academy players elsewhere.

Other spectators have less time for the sport, only know what's in front of them and therefore might want as many bought-in players as it takes.

Each to his own (as regards spectators), I guess, as long as the clubs who feel the need to adopt the high-cost, buy-everyone-in model don't insist on having all slices of the pie to feed their hunger.

 

[smartcooky]

- Is this a realistic reflection of what could happen down the line? Would the big teams grow to a point where they have no consideration for the development of the game in the nation they happen to be playing in? If this is the case, then we can be absolutely certain they would not give two sh"ts about the development of the game in other nations! [which has been a big concern since this whole charade began

I'm afraid that point was already reached some years ago with some clubs in both England and France. They're just following on from what has already happened with Wendyball

 

[gaston le gaff]

Some of the facts that you guys are writing are rather hazy eg
The last TOP 14 Montpellier game against Oyonnax at home 2 weeks ago, we fielded 18 out of 23 FRENCH PLAYERS and 8 of those 23 came through the Ecole de Rugby or the Academy. Lets make sure we are not painting everyone with the same brush., Montpellier are not alone in this situation, teams like Toulouse, Clermont, Castres,+ others have strong Academies and youth developemnt schemes.

 

[coolbawn]

Quite right Gaston. Same with the AP clubs - they aren't all the same.

 

[Prestwick]

I was talking about the English Premier League. Hence the "No way would I like rugby to emulate this".

But in regards to teams coming and going and established reigns:

If you think reigns start and end due to any other reason than money, then you're wrong.

There's a clear disparity in general in the league, between teams paying near/up to the cap: Tigers, Saints, Sarries, Glos, Bath, perhaps Exe, and teams that are clearly not: Wasps, Sale, Wuss, Falcons, Irish.

Wasps used to be near the top because they spent a lot of money to keep up at the top. They've run themselves into millions of debt and have come close to administration and relegation as a result. It wasn't a healthy business practise to follow.

Sarries joined the top 4 purely because they started having the money to invest in the team.

Glos did really well for years and then started hitting mid-table because they didn't have the benefactors to keep up with the money being spent by the top teams when the salary cap was doubled and the recession hit. It was only last year when Glos started paying up to the salary cap again, simply through economic recovery and growth of the club. Expect results to start materialising when Davies has had the chance to put his foot down on the whole squad and get rid of some dead wood.

Same with Bath. They are competing now because they finally had a chance to get rid of a lot of dead wood. But ultimately, they wouldn't be anywhere near if they couldn't pay up to the cap.

Are you really under an impression that Irish and Wuss can get to the top of the table, when they don't have the money to tie their players down? And that their lack of success will give them any chance of growing their crowds, or setting up a regular position in the lucrative European market? There's only one way for them really: spend more. And they cannot do that without benefactors.

There are still a few clubs in the Premiership that can challenge without wealthy benefactors. But I'm not sure how long this will last. Aggressive plans to increase the salary cap will make these teams fall behind and make the league into a three-tier one.

Everything revolves around money in the Premiership...

It's not top 4 vs. the rest yet, but it's heading that way.

Yeah I just realised overnight you were talking about the EPL so apologies, no offence meant.

 

[Prestwick]

I agree with you, their owner is a basket case and it's a negotiating position to get Toulon a better deal from LNR. His comments do however hint at a split in the united front which the French clubs were presenting. LNR/PRL were clearly trying to divide and conquer the Pro 12 clubs. Now it appears as though the Pro 12 and Unions can do the same to the RCC teams.

I do find it hilarious that the Anglo-French club that does eventually break ranks, only breaks ranks on the basis of an internal LNR matter which has nothing to do with the current H-Cup issue that would see them probably competing only in H-Cup rugby next season and ejected from the RCC and the LNR! I'm sure Toulon have the financial muscle to survive on...what? A maximum of 10 games next season but this is taking the whole issue to near farcical levels.

As the toys fly out of the pram on the South of France however, the Guardian has reported that Ian Richie's shuttle diplomacy is bearing fruit. So far:

1. There is agreement on meritocracy within the H-Cup with Scotland and Italy guaranteed only one H-Cup berth next season if the agreement goes ahead.
2. Near agreement on revenue split with the WRU wisely seeking a 13% split between the Celtic Unions which would boost revenue substantially if the £70m figure the Anglo-French are banding about is true.
3. Possible compromise on broadcast rights allowing BT and Sky a stake in H-Cup rugby and allowing LNR to auction off their own rights...though I thought they already did this?

So despite the frankly bizarre decision by Toulon it looks like we'll get a compromise agreement after all...though ERC still looks toast thank god.

 

[profitius]

Some of the facts that you guys are writing are rather hazy eg
The last TOP 14 Montpellier game against Oyonnax at home 2 weeks ago, we fielded 18 out of 23 FRENCH PLAYERS and 8 of those 23 came through the Ecole de Rugby or the Academy. Lets make sure we are not painting everyone with the same brush., Montpellier are not alone in this situation, teams like Toulouse, Clermont, Castres,+ others have strong Academies and youth developemnt schemes.

I hear Clermont has set up an academy in Fiji.

 

[Amiga500]

As the toys fly out of the pram on the South of France however, the Guardian has reported that Ian Richie's shuttle diplomacy is bearing fruit. So far:

1. There is agreement on meritocracy within the H-Cup with Scotland and Italy guaranteed only one H-Cup berth next season if the agreement goes ahead.
2. Near agreement on revenue split with the WRU wisely seeking a 13% split between the Celtic Unions which would boost revenue substantially if the £70m figure the Anglo-French are banding about is true.
3. Possible compromise on broadcast rights allowing BT and Sky a stake in H-Cup rugby and allowing LNR to auction off their own rights...though I thought they already did this?

1. Was never much of an issue. I think everyone involved with the Pro12 was begrudgingly willing to accept qualification, the issue being that 1 place per country needed to be ringfenced. I personally wanted to ensure that each country's share of the pot was kept consistent regardless of who qualified to ensure growth in the weaker nations. Not sure if that was a widely shared viewpoint though.

2. I'm 99% certain the current split is (roughly) 24/24/13/13/13/13... so whats changed? :huh:

3. This was always the big issue with potentially legally binding contracts on both sides. But now instead of having two TV companies bid against each other for rights, they'll be able to sort a deal amongst themselves and offer the sport much less in future. Well played McCafferty you stupid, short-termist, mindless fcukwit.

 

[Packman]

So we've got the IRFU, SRU, FFR, FIR, WRU and Toulon in one corner and PRL plus most of LNR in the other corner with the RFU and Welsh clubs sitting on the fence. If Toulon have broken rank, how long before other moneybags teams like Racing Metro and ASM do likewise?

Loose cannon tactics from filthy rich egomaniacs... Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by supporting the ERC Euro Cup I'm doing the right thing for rugby. Are you?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Hypothetically; what if it were Leinster (who were not a part of the IRFU for the sake of this) that were loaded with foreign players?

I truly don't know. I suspect I would be happy if it bought success! If it didn't my interest in the team would drop considerably. As things stand I'm happy to see Leinster develop players for Ireland so I don't mind if there's a slip in standards and will keep hold of my season ticket.

Loose cannon tactics from filthy rich egomaniacs... Yeah, I'm pretty sure that by supporting the ERC Euro Cup I'm doing the right thing for rugby. Are you?

Not sure what your point is. My point is that there's a split in the RCC camp. Whether Toulon supporting ERC is good news is neither here nor there. They're looking after their best interests. So are those happy with the RCC. To hell with international rugby, both Toulon and RCC are first and foremost concerned with turning a profit.

On balance I think ERC is better for international rugby than the RCC proposal but we'll see what the compromise brings.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I hear Clermont has set up an academy in Fiji.

yes they have and rightly so gives any young, up and coming rugby players a chance they may other wise not ever have had.

 

[gaston le gaff]

If you lived in the South of France the comments coming from the President of Tulon are fast and furious and not everybody bothers to listen, so please take the last one with the pinch of salt that it represents. As Tony said the toys are in and out of the pram faster than ??????

 

[Amiga500]

If you lived in the South of France the comments coming from the President of Tulon are fast and furious and not everybody bothers to listen, so please take the last one with the pinch of salt that it represents. As Tony said the toys are in and out of the pram faster than ??????

a yo-yo

 

[Prestwick]

1. Was never much of an issue. I think everyone involved with the Pro12 was begrudgingly willing to accept qualification, the issue being that 1 place per country needed to be ringfenced. I personally wanted to ensure that each country's share of the pot was kept consistent regardless of who qualified to ensure growth in the weaker nations. Not sure if that was a widely shared viewpoint though.

2. I'm 99% certain the current split is (roughly) 24/24/13/13/13/13... so whats changed? :huh:

3. This was always the big issue with potentially legally binding contracts on both sides. But now instead of having two TV companies bid against each other for rights, they'll be able to sort a deal amongst themselves and offer the sport much less in future. Well played McCafferty you stupid, short-termist, mindless fcukwit.

The current split was 24/24/52. How the Pro12 money gets split is open to interpretation. Its said that the SRU and FIR get more than the IRFU and WRU. Also its the WRU who get the Welsh share and not the clubs. I was wrong however with the proposed revenue split by the Celts. It is actually proposed that revenue be split 40/30/30 with a fair four way split between the Celts and Italians. That would still give the Celts a healthy revenue boost.

As for McCafferty, you don't go into a knife fight weilding a hotdog like PRL have in the previous two H-Cup negotiations. They're adamant that they got mullered in the previous negotiations and the Celtic unions were happy to crow about it as well. In any case, BT deal or no BT deal, the Celts and the ERC haven't helped themselves by being so lassaiz fare about negotiations.

It doesn't matter if what PRL are doing is wrong, it certainly doesn't help to saying "eh...I guess we could have a meeting in a few months time" doesn't cut it if the whole future of Northern Hemisphere rugby is at stake. Why didn't ERC call PRL/LNR's bluff EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO when they first said they intended to leave by saying "oh, really? You want to leave? Okay then, come over to Dublin right now and lets talk this over with an independent mediator and lets see your cards!"

When history looks at this sorry saga, you'll see PRL/LNR burning Rome whilst the ERC and the Celts fiddle away happy.

 

[profitius]

We've all heard the argument about Pro 12 teams resting players in the Pro 12. What about Gloucester making 12 changes from last week for their trip to Munster?