Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Amiga500]

<<snip>>

Blah blah blah, cry cry cry.


So, if the Dragons went to the wall, and lets say the Ospreys had a mature squad full of internationals whereas the Scarlets had a young team, too young to be internationals, you say cut the funding for them too?


F88k it, why not just give all the money to the Ospreys and rename them "Wales". Does that work?



How long have you lived in London? You don't work in the financial sector by chance do you?</snip>

 

[coolbawn]

Originally Posted by psychic duck
"I bet you're one of those only watch international types that are so prominent in Wales these days."

I had to laugh, not-so-psychic duck. Actually I'm not Welsh at all, enjoy following the Irish provinces from afar, I attend my favourite EPL club's matches (Quins, who have a similar nurturing approach and player profile to the provinces, by the way), prefer club rugby to internationals (if I had to choose) but try to take an interest in - and pleasure from - aspects of all clubs we can see on television (and have time to watch). So I'm hoping that you are misjudging the current situation as much as you managed to misjudge me !

I prefer to trust the (admittedly imperfect) unions to work with the (by no means 100% evil) clubs to improve the game for players and spectators at all levels in Europe. They did quite a good job to get the HC and Amlin where they are now and I'm sure they will make improvements.

 

[Feicarsinn]

The Ospreys need to run as a business as well. They should be compensated better for the large amount of Wales players supplied. The Dragons do bugger all for the national team and harm the 3 providers chances. Ireland have managed to get a huge advantage over Welsh regions by treating Connacht (who traditionally provide less internationals than them) like runts. The Ospreys should get Faletau the same way Leinster can ruthlessly obtain any decent Connacht player like McCarthy or Cronin for instance. Putting more money into 3 teams would also help them be more successful and more likely to keep their own players as well.

The Dragons taking undeserved money the other 3 regions for nothing gained themselves is one of the biggest problems with the WRU.

I don't buy your theory at all, it's a business, the WRU looking at results would be far wiser to invest more funds in the Ospreys, Blues and Scarlets who had 10, 9 and 9 players in the 6N squad respectively (along with French based players produced by them) whilst the Dragons who had an pathetic 2 despite getting equal funding.

If they want more funding they should have to earn it. The current arrangement is a **** take for all the Team Wales providers. If there were 4 people sent out to collect berries and 3 brought back a 100 and the other brought back 10, would you think it fair that they were all given the same funding? The success of the Ospreys is hurt by Wales taking away players yet the don't get rewarded for producing.

And by the way, the Heineken Cup would improve much in quality with the 20 team format the French and English put forward. It's up to the Zebre to improve themselves and get up the Pro12 table. And why should they receive special treatment? If you want to help the smaller side in Zebre then why aren't you also helping all the other club sides in Europe? Any Celt/Italian that talks of "needing places to improve" is hypocritical. They won't even put forward a mere Amlin Cup place for Georgian, Russian or Romanian club sides in favour of inferior Italian clubs.



The majority was against weakened Ospreys. Ambushing them was the highlight event of the Dragons season seeing as they'll never actually win anything. Sadly they have now helped afflicted the same fate on the rest of the regions now. The Ospreys will be fighting just to avoid bottom place in the pool this time, it's plausible we could have 3 bottom placed Welsh regions this season.



The Heineken Cup versions haven't, which is the main priority of the teams. The Ospreys are not as good as they were in 2012 either, and are likely to get worse. They have very little of chance of repeating a draw from the Rabo in the H Cup. Glasgow's record in Europe isn't all that impressive, they were doubled pretty easily by Ulster last season. I can't imagine Leinster having too many problems with them, perhaps in the away leg maybe.

Your comparisons to Connacht are a little out of date I'm afraid. While in the past Connacht have been something of the poor relation of Irish rugby a much more active effort is being made to strengthen the province. For example, the Irish provinces aren't allowed outbid eachother on player contracts so Connacht can't be punished for not having the same resources as the other sides by not being able to match the contracts that Leinster or Munster might make. This means that if a player wishes to leave it's down to personal preference rather than Connacht being outbidded. Also they're not subject to the same regulations as the other three provinces regards non Irish qualified players. This means they've been able to recruit from abroad at will leading to a stronger and more competitive side. Finally, there's been some real investment made in their youth development which is starting to pay off, and will continue to do so over the coming years. Players like Kieran Marmion, Robbie Henshaw, Tiernan O'Halloran, etc are no longer simply out of the equation for Ireland because they're at Connacht and this will strengthen the province no end in the long run.

I think the vast majority of people in Irish rugby realise at this stage that a stronger Connacht is good for our game and that it doesn't have to be at the expense of the other three provinces. Why you'd want to take a backwards step and go out of your way to damage the Dragons is beyond me.

 

[Prestwick]

Your comparisons to Connacht are a little out of date I'm afraid. While in the past Connacht have been something of the poor relation of Irish rugby a much more active effort is being made to strengthen the province. For example, the Irish provinces aren't allowed outbid each other on player contracts so Connacht can't be punished for not having the same resources as the other sides by not being able to match the contracts that Leinster or Munster might make. This means that if a player wishes to leave it's down to personal preference rather than Connacht being outbidded. Also they're not subject to the same regulations as the other three provinces regards non Irish qualified players. This means they've been able to recruit from abroad at will leading to a stronger and more competitive side. Finally, there's been some real investment made in their youth development which is starting to pay off, and will continue to do so over the coming years. Players like Kieran Marmion, Robbie Henshaw, Tiernan O'Halloran, etc are no longer simply out of the equation for Ireland because they're at Connacht and this will strengthen the province no end in the long run.

I think the vast majority of people in Irish rugby realise at this stage that a stronger Connacht is good for our game and that it doesn't have to be at the expense of the other three provinces. Why you'd want to take a backwards step and go out of your way to damage the Dragons is beyond me.

The out bidding ban sounds like good financial sense. Connacht definitely need some TLC and its great that they're getting it

 

[Prestwick]

As an arbitraitor the RFU spectacularly failed to prevent a European meltdown. Personally I think the RFU have sat on the fence and that has encouraged the Wreckers to ruin the best club competition in the world.

Its looking like Italy are going to cut adrift and left to sink while Scotland's elite player pool is slashed by approx 40% overnight (personally I don't think the Edinburgh players will stay at the club, and that opens another can of worms for everyone no matter what national team you support. The FFR have said they will not recognise a Anglo-French competition. What have the RFU done? Left the door open... You can call that rising above the whole drama. I call it pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.

Roll on the erc meeting at the end of October. Let's see if LNR and PRL make good on their promise of not attending. We may see a few chess peices moved in the aftermath of the meeting. If we don't then I'll take that as proof that the Welsh and Irish have followed Scotland's lead and bottled it and the death knell for italian rugby has been struck.

Oh and even after round One I think Edinburgh, Scarlets and Gloucester's wins this weekend prove that the whole qualification argument is deeply flawed. But then again doesn't it get shot down in every eurocup? Connaught, Treviso, Edinburgh, Scarletts, all have giant killing traditions in this competition.

If the IRB, unions, individual clubs, players and us fans let LNR and PRL set up a non inclusive european competition then we will deserve what we get, and we're talking ramifications for everyone, no matter which hemisphere you live in. It will affect you.

And what would you have the RFU do exactly? The RFU can't foist a decision upon the clubs, they haven't the power to do that and haven't had that power for years. That time is gone and its never coming back.

If the RFU had come out on one side or another that would have arguably had made things worse. Come down on the side of the ERC, IRB and the Celtic Unions and they risk a whole new club breakaway which would make the breakaway of the Northern Clubs in 1895 look like a mere misunderstanding. Come down on the side of the PRL and they risk pushing the ever more stubborn Celtic unions into the abyss of self suicide which would ruin Northern Hemisphere rugby and thus harm the RFU's own gravy train.

So it isn't exactly all that clear cut and easy as simply stepping in and taking a side and to be fair to Ian Richie and the RFU, they've done pretty well in being the sane, mature go between in this whole saga.

Forget about October 23rd. In the light of PRL/LNR saying, as they've said for eighteen months now that they're done with the ERC, that meeting is now irrelevant. The ERC is dead and we need to get used to that fact. End of story.

What the real focus needs to be on is this new shuttle diplomacy between the Celtic Unions and PRL/LNR and making an accommodation for the Pro12 clubs based on a multi-tiered competition. An elite H-Cup style competition for the top 20 teams, an Amlin style cup with teeth for the rest and a third tier cup for all the lower league teams from the Greene King Championship, the D2 and so on.

ERC, the Unions and PRL/LNR have done their best to screw this up and the RFU are doing their level best to fix things. And we need to be thankful that they didn't overtly take sides in this.

 

[McTallshort]

Well so what? Neither have Leeds or Exeter!

Neither Worcester or Bristol even made it into the HC at all

Yes thats because they have to first get into the AP then get into the top 6 something Treviso dont have to worry about. Exeter has done and are now in their second year of HEC rugby having built themselves up from the bottom so what is you point? Clubs who have not had any exposure to HEC money are able to develop themselves so there is no need to keep subbing teams like Treviso and Connought because if they were any good they would make it on their own?

 

[psychic duck]

Your comparisons to Connacht are a little out of date I'm afraid. While in the past Connacht have been something of the poor relation of Irish rugby a much more active effort is being made to strengthen the province. For example, the Irish provinces aren't allowed outbid eachother on player contracts so Connacht can't be punished for not having the same resources as the other sides by not being able to match the contracts that Leinster or Munster might make. This means that if a player wishes to leave it's down to personal preference rather than Connacht being outbidded. Also they're not subject to the same regulations as the other three provinces regards non Irish qualified players. This means they've been able to recruit from abroad at will leading to a stronger and more competitive side. Finally, there's been some real investment made in their youth development which is starting to pay off, and will continue to do so over the coming years. Players like Kieran Marmion, Robbie Henshaw, Tiernan O'Halloran, etc are no longer simply out of the equation for Ireland because they're at Connacht and this will strengthen the province no end in the long run.

I think the vast majority of people in Irish rugby realise at this stage that a stronger Connacht is good for our game and that it doesn't have to be at the expense of the other three provinces. Why you'd want to take a backwards step and go out of your way to damage the Dragons is beyond me.

Perhaps if the providers in Wales got strengthened by some of the money wasted on the non provider, then likewise the non provider could possibly gain an undeserved European place based on an Amlin Cup win.

The comparison with Connacht isn't wrong in the larger perspective of things either. They have been the runt of Irish rugby for years, and whilst they have improved from the glorified AIB League side they used to be over the past 2 years or so they are still palpably the poorer relation of the provinces by a margin and are treated as such with lesser funding, dumping ground for players, and their best players will normally leave, the Dragons (who achieve less than Connacht with more resources) should be treated the same.

And by the way, Connacht only had 1 player in Schmidt's 42 man training squad, even worse than the Dragons. There's a reason why the IRFU aren't wasting money funding them equal to Leinster, they don't get the same return, and my guess is they will have to increase what they contribute to the national team to get an increase. The Welsh should have followed the Irish model of the unions funding their teams years ago. What's the incentive to produce Welsh internationals if you lose 10 even the fringe players for camps in Poland and 4th internationals every year harming success and then struggling to keep them, whilst another gets the same money for producing about 2 players and gets rewarded with the same funding.

Blah blah blah, cry cry cry.


So, if the Dragons went to the wall, and lets say the Ospreys had a mature squad full of internationals whereas the Scarlets had a young team, too young to be internationals, you say cut the funding for them too?


F88k it, why not just give all the money to the Ospreys and rename them "Wales". Does that work?



How long have you lived in London? You don't work in the financial sector by chance do you?

The Turks aren't the ones with a consistent track record over many years of a large percentage of said young players amounting to nothing.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Hang on, is this argument actually Psychic Duck just saying "the club I support deserves the most money because we're the best!!!!11!!1!one!!!1?"

Because if so this is hilarious.

 

[psychic duck]

Hang on, is this argument actually Psychic Duck just saying "the club I support deserves the most money because we're the best!!!!11!!1!one!!!1?"

Because if so this is hilarious.

I'm not surprised the Irish on here are in favour of measures of mismanagement that enfeeble their potential rivals to maintain their provinces in the ascendancy.

No Connacht fan could say with a straight face that with producing 1 player in Schmidt's 42 man training squad and never once qualifying for Europe off their own back that they should get the same funding as Leinster. The Dragons should be in the same boat as how Ireland treat Connacht - the developmental region. Any honest Dragons fan would agree.

 

[Maverick1987]

Anyone who thinks teams like aironi/zebre should just walk into the Heineken cup with little or no effort needs a slap . The rabo12 is a damn joke when it should be great because of the little amount of competition that's in it . Most games should be awesome but more often than not it's a b side playing . If it's right that English and French clubs get 800k each and rabo teams get 1.3million I don't blame the Anglo French for leaving because that's quite honestly bull****

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'm not surprised the Irish on here are in favour of measures of mismanagement that enfeeble their potential rivals to maintain their provinces in the ascendancy.

No Connacht fan could say with a straight face that with producing 1 player in Schmidt's 42 man training squad and never once qualifying for Europe off their own back that they should get the same funding as Leinster. The Dragons should be in the same boat as how Ireland treat Connacht - the developmental region. Any honest Dragons fan would agree.

I'm all for stronger Welsh regions. Good for the league, good for European club rugby and, in the long run, good for the Northern Hemisphere at large. That doesn't mean that the only way to go about it is to cut funding to your weakest side. Hardly worked for the Scots when they disbanded the Boarders.

As for Connacht, it's a process. They've been harshly treated in the past, but this is slowly changing. As the IRFU has only really been treating them seriously for about three years you can't expect to see a large contingent in the national squad yet. The players need to come through the system first. But their underage structures are very much heading in the right direction.

 

[smartcooky]

No Connacht fan could say with a straight face that with producing 1 player in Schmidt's 42 man training squad and never once qualifying for Europe off their own back that they should get the same funding as Leinster. The Dragons should be in the same boat as how Ireland treat Connacht - the developmental region. Any honest Dragons fan would agree.

But that is exactly what we do.

Chiefs and Highlanders get the same funding from NZRU. So do the Crusaders, the Blues and the Hurricanes. They then have to raise additional funding through their own sponsorships. That is how a "Union Owned Franchise System" works.

In "Private ownership systems" like they have in England, there is a gradual bias in the money and success toward a small number of teams that get richer and better, and the whole competition itself becomes a borefest (not necessarily in the individual games though) with a mainly predictable table. The Football EPL is the ultimate expression of what will happen with the AP of this trend is allowed to continue. A rich businessman can come along and buy himself a Premiership simply by pouring money into whichever club he chooses to back. Be honest, what chance do Palace, Fulham, West Ham or Villa have of ever winning the Premier League ***le? No chance at all!

The AP salary cap is no protection either against this, as they are so easy to subvert. Fake jobs and free cars for the Wags/Dependants, unlimited use of high-end "company" cars, hidden retirement packages, guaranteed jobs after rugby, etc, are just a few.

Privatisation of domestic clubs has been bad for rugby in England and France. The RFU and FFR missed the boat back in 1995, and now they are paying for it, big-time! Every time I see, hear and read about the constant political arguments, back-biting, arrogant posturing and inane bickering that goes on in the European domestic game, I thank Christ that the late Jock Hobbs (God rest his soul) had the foresight to see what it would lead to, and the vision to do what was necessary to save us from that mess.

 

[dasNdanger]

Geez, guys...don't make me start swinging my ovaries around to knock some of the testosterone out of this thread.








das

 

[j'nuh]

As for Connacht, it's a process. They've been harshly treated in the past, but this is slowly changing. As the IRFU has only really been treating them seriously for about three years you can't expect to see a large contingent in the national squad yet. The players need to come through the system first. But their underage structures are very much heading in the right direction.

Isn't the real money-maker for the three regions other than Connacht in owning internationals through central contracting?

If the IRFU pay for a vast amount of an international's salary, and Connacht don't have (m)any internationals to speak of, then they aren't really benefiting anywhere near as much as the other regions, and they won't unless the IRFU spread the internationals evenly over the 4 regions. And when Connacht finally do produce international-quality players such as McCarthy, they are snapped up elsewhere, and Connacht really can't feel the benefits of central contracting anyway.

Wales talked about changing the way they finance the regions to central contracts like Ireland. If they did this, the Dragons would lose a lot of money in real terms.

 

[St George]

In "Private ownership systems" like they have in England, there is a gradual bias in the money and success toward a small number of teams that get richer and better, and the whole competition itself becomes a borefest (not necessarily in the individual games though) with a mainly predictable table. The Football EPL is the ultimate expression of what will happen with the AP of this trend is allowed to continue. A rich businessman can come along and buy himself a Premiership simply by pouring money into whichever club he chooses to back. Be honest, what chance do Palace, Fulham, West Ham or Villa have of ever winning the Premier League ***le? No chance at all!

What absolute rubbish. There is a lot that is wrong with domestic sport in England, but finances isnt one of them. When you talk about the EPL, you are talking from a position of having no connection or history of the system or people that support it. You even confess to having no real interest in your own top domestic rugby leagues:

Nothing else really matters to me from a rugby perspective; as far as domestic
rugby is concerned, I don't really give a monkeys. I'd sooner go over to Rugby
Park and stroll up and down the sideline when Riwaka are playing than go to an
ITM Cup or Super Rugby match.

So to comment on a football league that is recognised globally as one of the best in the world is quite frankly insulting, and one i cant allow you to get away with.
You mention certain teams in the EPL, and yes you are probably right that many of them do not harbour any real notion of winning the league, but that is not the be all and end all of their existance. Anyone who says so is talking b*ll**** and has no idea about the tribalism that generates passionate interest from right across the country from the high echelons of the Premiership right down to the non-league sides. I know....i have lived it for 40+ years and still do entering my 50's.

Man Utd are the current ***le holders, and yet the fans of the no ***le chance West Bromich Albion recently beat them at Man U's own 70,000capacity Theatre of Dreams Old Trafford. A Spurs fan friend of mine recently boasted to a West Ham fan that his ***le contending team would whoop lowly West Ham 6-1 at Spurs ground. Two weeks after the Hammers 0-3 victory, the fallout is still raging on and keeping the rest of our group amused with the tribal banter and bragging rights etc.

As a Leeds United fan, i have experienced the highs of football and the depths of despair of almost financial ruin, but i wouldnt have it any other way, and enjoyed it immensely when my 3rd tier club knocked out high achieving filthy rich 1st tier club Man U from the FA Cup a few years back. The bragging rights i still have for my Spurs mate for doing the same to his team last year are still there.

That is what sport in England is all about, and the fact you just don't get that with teams below the AB's saddens me.

Please stick to comments concerningrugby as your knowledge of football sucks.

 

[Amiga500]

The Turks aren't the ones with a consistent track record over many years of a large percentage of said young players amounting to nothing.

I take it that is a yes then.

You'd happily see the demise of all other regions if it meant your precious ospreys getting more $$$

 

[psychic duck]

I take it that is a yes then.

You'd happily see the demise of all other regions if it meant your precious ospreys getting more $$$

You really are quite determined on making yourself look a complete fool aren't you? Saving money on the non provider would boost both the other regions and the national team you thick ****.

Reading this thread reminds me why the WRU should have ditched the Rabo league when they had the chance years ago, it in the Irish interest to weaken their rivals. To maintain the consistency of your argument, you also must think that Connacht should also get equal union funding to Leinster despite contributing far less to the union that pays it out?

 

[dullonien]

You really are quite determined on making yourself look a complete fool aren't you? Saving money on the non provider would boost both the other regions and the national team you thick ****.

Reading this thread reminds me why the WRU should have ditched the Rabo league when they had the chance years ago, it in the Irish interest to weaken their rivals. To maintain the consistency of your argument, you also must think that Connacht should also get equal union funding to Leinster despite contributing far less to the union that pays it out?

I wonder if you believe the same thing in real life, such as the NHS etc. Those darn people paying little into the pot allowed to get the same amount out of it.

I firmly believe that there is talent emerging in Gwent, with the likes of Ieuan Jones, Jack Dixon, Hallam Amos, Jonathan Evans, Sam Parry, Matthew Screech (Blues weren't prepared to develop him), and Jason Tovey potential future Welsh internationals (okay, Tovey has been touted for a while, but he's back playing quite well).

Looking at the recent U20's squads, the breakdown is much more evenly distributed, with a healthy percentage of the players playing their trade in Gwent.

Maybe in 10 years time, it'll the Dragons who are developing the majority of Wales' international players. It's somewhat down to the luck of the draw as to the quality of the players coming through in the region. Cut the Dragons funding and you risk jeopardising the region as a whole. We've already mostly cut off the Valleys, and now you want to do something similar with Gwent? It's very difficult to reverse actions such as these.

Yes things are difficult at the moment, but jeopardising the long term in an attempt to secure some short-term success for the other regions isn't the way to fix things.

Edit. With regards to Europe. I draw the line with Aironi, because they are so far off the back that they'd be better off developing in the Amlin. But otherwise, it's important for the smaller teams to get equal revenue from the competition as the larger, richer ones, or things will quickly become even more lopsided than they are now.

 

[Amiga500]

To maintain the consistency of your argument, you also must think that Connacht should also get equal union funding to Leinster despite contributing far less to the union that pays it out?

I am very much of that opinion and have previously stated it. Almost surely on here, if not, I definitely have elsewhere.

Connacht can never expect to genuinely compete until it is given a genuine chance at doing so.

The IRFU have a duty to grow the game throughout Ireland. Not just in Dublin, Belfast or Limerick. 4 provinces competing with each other on the pitch with roughly equal teams is the best way to do it in the professional game.

The IRFU should ensure that Connacht can retain the likes of Marmion*, Henshaw and McSharry and continue to build in the future.


*I had heard rumours we were looking at him. Thankfully, these have proved to be untrue. The man should be let work away at the Sportsground.



Now to deal with the rest of your paranoid post:

You really are quite determined on making yourself look a complete fool aren't you? Saving money on the non provider would boost both the other regions and the national team you thick ****.

Reading this thread reminds me why the WRU should have ditched the Rabo league when they had the chance years ago, it in the Irish interest to weaken their rivals.

Reducing the players exposed to competitive professional games by 1/4 is not a means to boost the national team. Only in your selfish narrow-minded world does that make any sense, and then, only in the short-term.


This thread reminds me how short-sighted people can be at times. We have those trumpeting the PRL campaign to hand control of the premier professional club competition over to a few folks whose interest in the game extends no further than the front gate of their club. Then we have those who would happily grab a few more quid from their neighbour, even if it meant the long term decline of the sport into a niche, played only in a few areas deemed worthy.

 

[Amiga500]

Edit. With regards to Europe. I draw the line with Aironi, because they are so far off the back that they'd be better off developing in the Amlin. But otherwise, it's important for the smaller teams to get equal revenue from the competition as the larger, richer ones, or things will quickly become even more lopsided than they are now.

I would draw the line with Aironi being in the competition, but I would not agree with the FIR no longer receiving the funding they would get if Aironi were in the competition.

They need the mullah to develop the game... indeed, they probably need it more than any other tier 1 union.